I'm disassociating from 'radical'

[garlicbutter]

Not really expecting anything here (though this board often surprises me!) but I woke up with a fierce urge to write this post, so may as well go with it.

Self-declared radical feminists used to scare me - and piss me off. They were the ones who sneered at my friends & me for wearing fashionable clothes and makeup. Most of them seemed a hell of a lot quicker to anger than to rational debate. I wasn't that bothered - I was doing plenty for feminist causes, makeup notwithstanding. I just didn't call myself "radical".

A few decades along, I noticed everyone was saying "I'm not a feminist but ..." all over again. There was stuff going on in the media that I considered retrograde for women, and some spokeswomen seemed to be touting pornification and surrender as feminist values. By contemporary standards, it seemed, I was radical!

So I did a bit of reading, and asked on here, and it turns out I'm a rad fem. But it rankles. This is why: Either you're a feminist or you aren't. Either you strive for real gender equality or you don't. There's no need for the 'radical', it's a tautology.

The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)

So I'm a feminist, no adjectives required.

This isn't meant as a challenge or anything, but I wanted to post it since so many visitors come away from this board scratching their heads about radical feminism. I'm not saying I know a whole lot about it - I've not studied Feminst Theory or sociology - but I am a long-time feminist activist. Here's my take on it.

[Beachcomber]

[SybilBeddows]

Sprogger - me too. It's just the way internet discussion boards work, isn't it?!

[cloudyweather]

hmmm-i think we are limited and controlled all the time.
take for instance having a child-i feel that our children are our children but only to a certain extent-the "state"owns them!
eg-try having a disagreement with a school over youre child-you know youre own child but sometimes apparently others know youre child better than you-this can lead to big problems if you disagree.
i feel that this is possibly more of a problem for workingclass women.
also its a problem with women with children with sn!

[KatieMiddleton]

I agree with SGM. The honesty and raw emotion is definitely one of the best things. And also one of the hardest things.

I see my comments have been picked up above and I'm trying to work out why it matters so much more to get a kicking on this board than on the others. I've had two instances of people going after me in all the years I've been here. Once was on AIBU and once was off the boards when someone emailed me something horrible and neither time has bothered me half as much as when it happened here.

I think it's three reasons: firstly and perhaps most importantly, I didn't respect the opinion of the numpty on AIBU who had a go and the other person was having a really hard time in their personal life and they channelled it at me; secondly, it was just one person and no-one else piled in too - quite the opposite actually; thirdly, I expect, perhaps unfairly, people here would not let their emotions get in the way of the debate and to be polite and well mannered all the time. I think I expect this because I know you're all bright people and you have something to say and you don't need to get personal to make a point and I feel disappointed and frustrated when it becomes a battle and I feel I can't articulate my point because the decision about who I am and what I have to say has been made already.

It takes patience and understanding to open someone's mind but you can't do that if you frighten them away. The more people who stand up as feminists and challenge the patriarchy the more likely we are to succeed.

[DontdoitKatie]

Sparky, agree about the state's power over children. You also only have to look at the Muchausen's Syndrome by Proxy scandal to see it in action - where (discredited) Roy Meadow went around accusing mothers of having the syndrome and then their children were taken away from them.

To answer your earlier question, I didn't find radical feminism scary, but I'd been looking for it for a hell of a long time. When I heard its arguments at a distance when I was younger though, I completely rejected them and refused to think about them. Sometimes you just need to hear them when the time is right.

[garlicbutter]

I've had to skim-read the last 10 hours' worth of posts because I've just been to counselling after a too-long break, and my head's full of stuff that needs to sink in.

I picked up on this:
radical feminism has helped me realise why i have spent my life arguing with people but not understanding who/why i was arguing
because I'm - disappointedly - unsurprised my post has - yet again - polarised views between 'feminists' and 'radical' feminists. I've never hidden the fact that I find discussions on here stimulating and, at times, have rethought my assumptions because of it. That's why I'm here!

I've been consistent in my statement that I AM a radical feminist, going by all definistions proffered. I've tried to say that feminism BY NATURE is radical. If you don't "look to the roots" of what makes women unequal, you ain't got no feminism, have you? Thus, I find the adjective spurious. I said it's a tautology: a needless repetition of the same idea.

Tautology's literary description - a sequence of ideas that are only true because the preceding statement should be taken as true - also describes some of this forum's more aggressive posters, notably Dittany and followers. If I pose a question, state an opinion or query an idea, which offends the Dittany-view of the world and feminism within it: I'm not met with curiosity or interest, I am harangued with a series of accusations and tautologies - statements that can only be true if the precedin Dittany-esque statement was true.

I need to take this in stages. Anticipating demands for examples, I'm going to take some time out to find recent (today's) illustrations of what I mean.

Katie, this not a personal attack on you, except insofar as your posts have a massive influence on the style & nature of this board. I'm writing in trust that you really do wish to draw more women into feminism, and might be open to a bit of constructively-meant criticism. As I've repeatedly said, I have learned a lot here, especially from you and Prolesworth. I'm trying to elucidate why I find the 'radical' label unattractive, and hoping you're with me at least on a basic (feminist) level.

[DontdoitKatie]

Hello Garlicbutter, are you a new incarnation of the poster who accused me of believing that women who dress in a "sexy" manner were asking for rape?

Because you sound exactly like her.

I think what you are failing to grasp is that if you insult people:

"The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)"

they aren't going to take your criticism of them seriously. Especially when you are telling them to play nice. You do have to lead from the front you know.

"this forum's more aggressive posters, notably Dittany and followers. If I pose a question, state an opinion or query an idea, which offends the Dittany-view of the world and feminism within it: I'm not met with curiosity or interest, I am harangued with a series of accusations and tautologies - statements that can only be true if the precedin Dittany-esque statement was true."

Oh it is all about me Thanks sister. At least the nice feminists will know who to distance themselves from though. I'm not interested in someone who characterises radical feminism like that. I don't understand why you think any radical feminist would be either. It's a very unreasonable attitude.

[DontdoitKatie]

It's not a dittany view of the world, BTW, it's a radical feminist view of the world. Which is a perfectly reasonable position to hold and to argue in favour of in a feminist space.

Once again you are personalising it unnecessarily and nastily.

[Himalaya]

Garlicbutter - btw I enjoyed our long discussion on the question of whether you have to dismiss all consideration of evolutionary pressures underpinning social customs in order to be a femminist.

I thought you were thoughtful and open minded and challenging, and tenacious about your opinion without being bullying. I join Toddlerwrangler in saying I do hope you will stay.

[DontdoitKatie]

"I'm a little disturbed by the idea that there's some kind of dittany-led cult - it just isn't so."

It's propaganda:

1. Call radical feminism "a dittany view of the world".
   

1. Call anybody who agrees with radical feminist "dittany's followers"
   

1. Slag off dittany.
   

1. Distancing commences because who wants to be thought of a sycophantic follower of someone who is such a big meanie?
   

1. We all call ourselves sluts.
   

1. Patriarchy overthrown.
   

I should have stayed on the Kate Millet thread.

[garlicbutter]

Interim post - I haven't refreshed this page, so will have missed any x-posts.

I realise that I'm in danger of compromising the work I've done today in counselling by becoming overinvolved with this, highly specific, discussion. For anyone who doesn't know and might be bothered, my counselling is part of a radical (heh) recovery from 45 years of overt and covert abuse, so my feminism is very personally motivated. Like so many before & after me, I discovered feminism well before I saw the whole picture of what was happening in my own life. Sometimes the politics can sublimate the personal.

Not too long ago, I asked Katie what she would recommend as an alternative approach to handle the 'slut'->'asking for it' problem. No reply; only more criticism of other feminists' approach.
My questions are:
In what way does vituperation of another feminist's response to a feminist issue advance the cause?
What practical responses have you proposed?
How shall they be effected?

As it happens, I am a fan of philosophy. I believe that, if we still had thinkers (instead of consultants) in government think-tanks, we'd be seeing more constructive change in many areas and less fudging. I see you as a significant Mumsnet feminist philosopher, Katie. But workable philosophy needs to question and respond. You seem, to me, to spend most of your forum time telling other people off for not agreeing with you! Is that what you want - blind following? Or do you want to engage with questions, encourage fresh thoughts, perhaps allow a few other ideas into your head from time to time?

[DontdoitKatie]

Leave me alone please.

This is far to personal for you GB, and you still haven't answered whether or not you were the person who accused me of believing that women who dressed "sexily" deserved to be raped. A particularly nasty accusation in my case because when I was at school there was a boy who went around saying exaclty that about me, that I deserved to be raped, to anybody who would listen because he deemed my skirt too short. You don't like my style. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to pay no heed to it whatsoever.

[Beachcomber]

You know all this weird 'dittany's followers' nonsense is a bit insulting to those of us who have put quite a lot of time and effort into understanding feminist analysis and developing our viewpoints.

What is the point of this thread? So far I can only see that it is to attack dittany, attack radical feminists and be rude to a large number of MN feminists.

Garlicbutter I'm sorry if you are having a difficult time right now but I think this thread is very ill-advised and not very pleasant.

[garlicbutter]

I didn't accuse you of that at any point. It was one of your tautological extrapolations.

I'm sad for the little girl that happened to. I'm sad for all the grils & women this shit happens to. I want to change things. I work to change things.

It's not "too personal" for me, and I think better of you than to suppose you would use my honesty against me! I honestly said this was a poor time for me to be over-engaging in a specific dispute over forum politics. It still is.

You're entitled to pay no heed, of course. But that exemplifies my problem with this 'discussion' forum.

[SybilBeddows]

LOL Beachcomber, it did strike me that the book clubs are a bit of a waste of time if all we're doing is following Dittany.

I don't know why GarlicButter feels the need to personalise it so much, other than the fact that it makes it easier to ignore the viewpoints she disagrees with if she believes that the large numbers of people who do believe these things are just parroting Dittany rather than that we have come to it ourselves independently.

[Beachcomber]

"I honestly said this was a poor time for me to be over-engaging in a specific dispute over forum politics. It still is."

Why are you doing it then? - You started this thread.

[garlicbutter]

It was probably a mistake to come back to this thread today. I did because it was bothering me, and it ties in with the personal work I did today, which always has something to do with feminism & power iimbalances, and because it's rude to start a conversation and then abandon it. But I may have been wrong to act on those thoughts.

But thanks, everyone, for all your constructive challenges ...?

[DontdoitKatie]

I thought it was you GB.

Yes, the Dittany's followers thing is just another bit of ridiculousness and division making.

[Beachcomber]

Well quite. You know dittany is such a powerful cult leader that she managed to get me to parrot her views in real life, twenty years ago, before MN even existed!

Impressive huh?!

[garlicbutter]

FFS, Beachcomber, am I not allowed to have a significant personal event during the 24 in which I post? Is nobody?

If I wanted to be pilloried for trying to pursue a political converstaion while having a life, I'd be in the House of Commons!!!

[cloudyweather]

Garlicbutter-
[...yet again....polorised views between "feminists"and "radical feminists".]
no it hasnt-i mentioned radical because the op was about radical and since radical has had a big impact in my life i thought id speak about it.

Dittany-thankyou for answering my post-yep-i agree!

[garlicbutter]

SGM, so do I.

[garlicbutter]

Argh. I admit defeat. again :(