I'm disassociating from 'radical'

[garlicbutter]

Not really expecting anything here (though this board often surprises me!) but I woke up with a fierce urge to write this post, so may as well go with it.

Self-declared radical feminists used to scare me - and piss me off. They were the ones who sneered at my friends & me for wearing fashionable clothes and makeup. Most of them seemed a hell of a lot quicker to anger than to rational debate. I wasn't that bothered - I was doing plenty for feminist causes, makeup notwithstanding. I just didn't call myself "radical".

A few decades along, I noticed everyone was saying "I'm not a feminist but ..." all over again. There was stuff going on in the media that I considered retrograde for women, and some spokeswomen seemed to be touting pornification and surrender as feminist values. By contemporary standards, it seemed, I was radical!

So I did a bit of reading, and asked on here, and it turns out I'm a rad fem. But it rankles. This is why: Either you're a feminist or you aren't. Either you strive for real gender equality or you don't. There's no need for the 'radical', it's a tautology.

The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)

So I'm a feminist, no adjectives required.

This isn't meant as a challenge or anything, but I wanted to post it since so many visitors come away from this board scratching their heads about radical feminism. I'm not saying I know a whole lot about it - I've not studied Feminst Theory or sociology - but I am a long-time feminist activist. Here's my take on it.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

I think Timeforabiscuit means drunken brawling in the street etc. by "night time economy".....

But I could be wrong!

[garlicbutter]

Well, there were some remarks on the slutwalk thread, which I took to be not-very-veiled denigrations of women who dress 'sluttishly' and/or behave that way. As we're often noticing, wires become easily crossed when typing rapid replies so I'll stress that I took them that way. Also, some time back, I got into a bit of a bunfight with MN stalwarts who deplored contemporary 'slutty' dress. I cannot help but see this as a reflection of patriarchal attitudes ...

... which leads me into the knot I've been trying for myself! Yes, manipulation is an undesirable tactic, especially in feminism where we know that manipulation has long been a woman's only means of exerting power. But ... well, if this is a war, then all effective tactics should be considered on merit. I have played to male expections in order secure jobs and finance. I'm not sure whether I'm ashamed of that or not. I think I come down slightly on the side of 'not' - as the man's sexist attitudes are what made him vulnerable to manipulation.

[garlicbutter]

Lol at your word selectivity, Lenin I confess to using the word cunt both as an insult and and an anatomical identifier ... and am aware of the dissonance in that
Oh, well! When I'm perfect, I'll be Saint Garlic.

[garlicbutter]

I did mean to add that - as far as I can tell, being out of the loop these days - feminine manipulation plays a MUCH smaller part in working life than it did in my heyday. Women are more respected for their professional capabilities, and would be more likely to lose points for leg-flashing than to win the contract.

It's easy to focus on the negatives but, really, a heck of a lot has been achieved. Much of that might be invisible to the less politically-conscious and to younger people than me, but it's worth highlighting now & then. And celebrating :)

[garlicbutter]

Timeforabiscuit, thanks for your post where you wrote: I also think that mens rights should be given parity with womens i.e. staying at home, child benefit.

So do I. One thing you might want to consider is why the business of having children requires concessions, which have to be fought for, from the business world.

In a non-patriarchal business - they do exist! - time off for pregnancy, birth and childcare arrangements are part of the fundamental business structure. Moreover, an equivalent allowance is made for those who don't have children. Try imagining what business hours, a working week, a working year, a career, a corporate structure, would look like if men had always been the ones that had children (and had periods, for that matter.)

In 2011, everyone struggles with a work-life balance. Why does work exclude life? Most likely because work was structured by men who relied on the 'great woman' behind them. Think how straightforward it would be to rectify this.

Radical, but straightforward.

[AyeRobot]

This thread is baffling yet intriguing. Most of the disagreement on this board, outwith the pro/anti porn type idealogical discussions, stems from the filters through which the posters are a) approaching the issue and b) reading the other posts with all the attendent assumptions. So crossed purposes occur all the time and the discussion doesn't get any further.

Your post about business structure is sound, garlicbutter. Do you think that feminists here (or anywhere) think otherwise?

[garlicbutter]

I was replying to Timeforabiscuit, who introduced her/himself as a newish feminist and asked some sound questions. Not looking for approval but thanks anyway.

[Portoeufino]

I think everyone needs the same entitlement to "career breaks" and flexible working to level the playing field. Even non-parents. We need to change the whole culture of work.

I currently live in Belgium and both parents are entitled to an amount of parental leave. I actually see the blokes taking it too. You can take it up til your youngest child's 12 birthday. Also free wrap round child care/education 7.30 - 6 from age 2.5 and great holiday provision. My employer even offers me 10 days per year sick child cover - someone would come to my house and care for my child!!! (I have never used this!) I have seen male colleagues taking days off or working from home to look after ill children though.

It's diversity week at work though and I noticed that only 29% of employees are women. (technology company) and only 20% of higher management are women. So despite some improvements on the UK we still have some way to go....

[garlicbutter]

... ain't we just, Porto?!

British revulsion for Euro-equality really exasperates me. I'm having a blank moment - can someone please remind me of which bit of proposed legislation was roundly rejected by the business organisations because it would make employment (of women on crap wages) harder to maintain?

[garlicbutter]

Oh, oh, scrub that! It was about equal parental leave! They came right out and stated, proudly, that allowing men to take full paternity leave would rob them of their best workers for long periods! Note: best workers = male workers.

Grrr.

[Himalaya]

Prolsworth - " I don't know a single woman who has not been the victim of male violence or abuse. "

Really? I haven't, at least I don't think I have, unless you are using a very different definition ?

Maybe I've lived a very sheltered life. I do know people who have been raped, beaten up, flashed at, felt up etc but I think they are a minority amongst my friends. Of course there are lots of people I don't know well enough to know their full life story... But still I can't be the only 'black swan' to disprove your theory that all women have been the victim of male violence....

Just wondering, because I still don't get the violence-explains-all theory, and maybe it's because you meen something else than what I understand?

[Beachcomber]

Himalaya, I suspect that what is being meant here is violence in the sense of being groped/sexually assaulted/heckled with sexual abuse on the street/followed home/coerced into sex or a sexual act the woman didn't really want/exposed to misogynistic porn/sexually bullied at school or in the workplace/a woman adapting her movements for fear of violence.

Then of course we have the more direct violence of rape/domestic abuse/porn/prostitution/etc.

There was a thread a while ago on here about sexual assault of all nature - it made for sad reading and there were a lot of women who said things like 'I hadn't thought about this in years but when I was younger I was.......(sexually assaulted in some way)' - myself included.

It is my understanding that when feminists talk about male violence, they are not just talking about extreme male violence such as rape/wife burning/stoning.

A western women who is afraid to walk home at night, even if she has never been assaulted, is a victim of societal male violence.

[Beachcomber]

I bet if you ask the women on this thread if they have experienced male violence they will say yes. Sometimes we don't recognise that violence for what it is as we are conditioned to see it as 'just the way things are' and 'natural'.

I'll give you my experience; when I was about 13 I was groped on the Paris metro and the man shoved his fingers between my legs so hard he fingered my vagina through my pants. I was so shocked and ashamed (wtf?) that I didn't tell my mum (who was standing right next to me on the crowded metro).

I have also been flashed at, heckled with sexual abuse, followed home, received 'dirty' phone calls (was a child then too and afraid to answer the phone in my own home), been coerced into sex I didn't want, sexually assaulted in my workplace (an older man forced me into a cupboard and groped and kissed me), sexually harassed in the workplace (older man telling me, on a regular basis, in front of other people that he would like to give me 'a good seeing too'). I'm sure there is more but we women are conditioned to forget these things, brush them off and sometimes even be flattered by them.

All of the above is male violence against women - it has curtailed my movements, made me leave jobs, made me afraid, hurt me physically, disturbed me emotionally and humiliated me.

I have never been hit by a man (actually, I have, my dad smacked us when we were young) but that doesn't mean that I have never experienced male violence.

And, this, as Prolesworth says in a country where people will tell you feminism's 'job is done'.

[slhilly]

Without wanting to rehash things, I wanted to say:

• Dittany has made me think more than any other poster on this board. She is far from a lone voice, but I wanted to recognise that. It's been quite a journey for me, as anyone who has seen some of my early posts will recognise. So I am personally very grateful
  
• One of the ways that Dittany consistently makes me think carefully is her close analysis of language. That can be very uncomfortable, and I think part of it is that it is a lot more rigorous than the analysis that takes place elsewhere on MN. So it's a question of expectations, with people not particularly concentrating on crafting their posts carefully (because they don't elsewhere on MN) and then being taken aback to see a thorough analysis of them here. The word "need" (as in "I need") is one I have seen be subject to this kind of analysis...
  
• I therefore wanted to suggest that if people really want to offer constructive criticism of other individuals here, they might try a model of feedback that I have found useful: Behaviour, Impact, Clarification, Suggestion
  

-- It begins with describing in concrete terms (eg quotes) the specific behaviour you want to give feedback on. General terms like "x is aggressive" are not useful. Specific things like "you said 'a and then b' " are useful
-- Then describe the effect it has on you or on others
-- Then check it's clear for the other person
-- Then make a suggestion for what to do differently
It may help, it may not. It specifically won't help if the feedback giver is not interested in hearing from the recipient about why they were saying what they were saying -- ie it requires active listening and a spirit of genuine inquiry. But in case it's useful, I thought I'd describe it. By the way, you can use it for positive feedback too!

On a side-note, I have just been distracted in a bad way by hearing Cerrie Burnell, who I generally think is a Great Person To Have On Cbeebies, talking excitedly about Princess Catherine. Gah!!

[garlicbutter]

Leaving aside the violence I've experienced which is not typical (thank goodness), here are a few of the more everyday incidents from my own life:

An older male colleague sticking his hand up my skirt - and being outraged when I complained to the boss.

A guy on the Tube wanking in front of a younger girl (I shamed him, but every woman in that carriage was affected.)

A bloke trying to chat up my friends and me, who wouldn't go away. I was eventually very firm with him, at which point he got angry. Nearby men removed him.

Being felt up and having my hair stroked (eeeuw!) by random blokes on commuter trains.

"Nice legs, shame about the face, haha", "Show us yer tits, love, haha", "Cover that up, missus, it's ugly, haha", etc, etc, etc.

Wrt my first sentence - actually, a lot of the violence I've experienced is typical. But I'm trying to keep this to mundanities, for the sake of illustration.

[Himalaya]

SGM, Beachcomber, Leningrad - that is why I wouldn't say I have been a victim of violence & abuse, because I am lucky that nothing like that has happened to me, and I wouldn't want to play down someone else's distress by coming up with a 'me too' experience.

I walk home alone and I do feel my heartrate quicken when I go down dark alleys and between the hedges etc.., but I also know that I am being stupid, because the chance of there being a rapist lurking in the bushes is minuscule far less than the chance of me being knocked over by a motorist.

[garlicbutter]

Himalaya, I used to write guide books. There was a manadatory safety section in the first chapter. For my first couple of editions, I couldn't understand why the editors-in-chief kept querying my manner of writing this advice. After meny disputes conversations, it finally dawned on us all that I was writing from the pov of a woman who, throughout her life, has taken certain precautions for granted - and which the bosses, being male, had not really thought of.

We settled on a very good approach: I basically worked from the basis that I was teaching male readers how to be as careful as a woman! For me, this highlighted the stark difference between a man's world and a woman's.