Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

[steamedtreaclesponge]

Here

I'm not really sure what I think about all this. On the one hand the veil is used as a tool of oppression in many countries, and I'm generally against it on the grounds that if men can't control their lust at seeing women's faces, they should stay inside, rather than making women cover up.

But then, it doesn't sit right with me that women who wear it out of choice are being arrested. Or is it comparable to the choice to become a stripper, in that it may be an OK and not-so-harmful choice to make for the person doing it, but is something that harms other women by encouraging anti-feminist or mysogynistic attitudes?

I'd welcome some more informed views on this...

Cote, regarding Halal slaughter, I understand some animal right organizations are supporting the ban on the basis that the is no pre-killing stunning that makes death painless. The animal is essentially left dying from blood loss. I am frankly not qualified to discuss the detail as I am very uneasy about killing of any kind, but I am sure you can find arguments pro and against with ease yourself. I am not making the stance on halal btw.

"Sigh?"

Is that you 'letting go'?

How incredibly childish.

I am baffled as to why you are still so wound up. Let go, it's over. Sorry to disappoint, but the only thing I'll be sleeping on tonight is (French-ha!) bedlinen- I'm afraid I won't be giving you or this thread a second thought.

My brother who, although male, is ever so ever so clever, and politically active and has lived in France says this:

I suppose both sides have a point. It must be remembered that France is not, and never has been, a liberal society. It doesn't have a Liberal party, and what the French call 'libéralisme' we would call Thatcherism, which is not the same thing at all. /Laïcité/ is an important part of French identity: Christians have for years been subject to curbs on their freedom of expression and assembly in France. The French government is only being consistent...

He also says this:

Germany, for example, does prohibit covering one's face under certain circumstances, such as when attending a demonstration. Sure, we all wrap up warm in cold weather: but if, say, a police officer asked me to remove my scarf for identification, I would happily do so. The sort of people who cover their faces for religious reasons would probably make a fuss and call it harassment. These are not stupid rules. Igor's point about security is well made. Why should motorcyclists have to take their crash helmets off before entering a bank if Muslim women don't have to take off their veils? Indeed, who is to say that it's a Muslim woman behind that veil? It could be a white atheist man in disguise (indeed, the BBC correspondent John Simpson got into Kabul disguised in a burqa).

Good points I feel.

I've watched more than one ritual slaughter (children were seen as considerably less delicate back then) and can't say I've witnessed any prolonged suffering.

Basically, animal is hung upside down and a single deep gash is done to it's throat. It bleeds out in under a minute.

My one experience of excessive bleeding left me with the impression that bleeding out feels like going to sleep. I can't be sure, of course, but I'm a bit skeptical about "excessive suffering".

Just watched the last bit of 'The Victorians' on BBC2 which mentioned the 'Dress reform' campaigns at the turn of the 20th century so that women did not feel obliged to wear crushing corsetry which prevented them from fully taking part in society. Interesting parallels.

I'm not in favour of banning things. But if the French really want to ban something, could they please ban President boxed Camembert. It tastes like cardboard and we've had one in my family for three generations and it still hasn't ripened.

Good luck to any government that allows the production of foie gras, or that dish involving a blinded live bird, or indeed the way Dutch pork farms are allowed to keep pigs (far lower welfare standards than UK pig farms), with making a logical case for banning halal or kosher slaughter on humane grounds!

I have seen many Saudi women who take off their black tents in the plane, before it even touches down in France and come out of the planes in fluorescent pink mini skirts and the like. It is sad, really,

Maybe now quite a few of the others will be able to tell their husbands/chaperones "Well, I'd like to keep it on, but it is not allowed in France".

Cote, I love your last sentence! Brilliant - let's hope so

I've thought up a new feminist slogan:

"Freedom of speech only exists when it comes to defending porn"

Basically.

Everything else, including clothing, can be policed and attacked according to the whims of each particular patriarchy, even when they're not doing anyone any harm (and porn does a lot of harm)

Want to protect women? Start with porn. That's the root of the rape culture, not a friggin "Darth Vader outfit" Beachwhale

And when you look at it like this you realise that banning the burqua has nothing to do with protecting women at all, and everything to do with controlling them.

I mentioned this programme on the chat thread. Well worth viewing in terms of the choice that is not a choice argument. The burqa does protect the individual woman in some cultures but only from the point of view that it is protecting her from men and the consequences that they dish out for her not being veiled.

Why "either-or" sakura? To me porn and burkha wearing is very similar: men telling women what to wear/or not and protecting their disgusting treatment of women with 'freedom of choice'.

What does porn have to do with this issue?

And are you so naive as to think burqas don't do any harm? Like, all women are covered up from tip of the head to toes, even wearing gloves, are doing so because they really want to?

"people who shout at me about my niqab, usually sexist or racist stuff, so far have always been men. I wonder why?"

Maybe because they are pigs (sorry, pigs)? After reading about the French (and taking part in a few threads on MN) I would probably vote for burkha ban myself, but I would never ever ever shout at anyone.

niqab and porn are reverse images if the same idea: subjugating and objectifying women

Incidentally, one can be shot down (never mind shouted at) for not wearing what is perceived to be an appropriate attire for females in some countries (eg Chechnya).

laptopwieldingharpy very well said

or gang raped and set on fire in France

www.jihadwatch.org/2011/02/chechnya-calls-for-female-state-workers-to-wear-hijab.html

I do not know jihadwatch as an organization (so please do not shoot me, it was the first source i came across on google just now), but this topic was widely discussed in the Russian media in response to physical attacks on females not adhering to strict islam dress-code.

objection
chechnya/russia is another problem altogether

stay close to the subject