Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

[steamedtreaclesponge]

Here

I'm not really sure what I think about all this. On the one hand the veil is used as a tool of oppression in many countries, and I'm generally against it on the grounds that if men can't control their lust at seeing women's faces, they should stay inside, rather than making women cover up.

But then, it doesn't sit right with me that women who wear it out of choice are being arrested. Or is it comparable to the choice to become a stripper, in that it may be an OK and not-so-harmful choice to make for the person doing it, but is something that harms other women by encouraging anti-feminist or mysogynistic attitudes?

I'd welcome some more informed views on this...

"Englsih welsh, scots, irish, french, german etc etc converts who choose to wear the veil. Their values are clearly english welsh scots etc etc etc "

Absolutely not. They have chosen to live by a different set of values. That is what "convert" means.

Maybe they have scrapped the socialist bin police just to fool us that they are on the people's side. But, whatever they do, I think they will be far better than the last lot. Five more years of them and the country would have looked like East Germany under the Stasi.

A different religion with a different upset of values, as evidenced by the need to cover oneself head to toe.

stripeywoollenhat - girls are expected to wear veils too!

But my comparison was more about the method used to stop behaviour (be it fully covering up or FGM) - just ban or use community education also plus I was wanting to counter some of these "choice" arguments - i.e. a woman choose's it so it must be ok.

If a Mum "chooses" FGM for her DD due to religion and culture then we (feminists) abhor that. Where is a line drawn so as to prevent individual freedom to prevent opression/harm etc?

good points by Forkful. It is the same as our opposition to forced arranged marriages. We are imposing our cultural values on other cultures.

'when all American children have to sing their anthem every morning and most other countries do similar exercises in national pride? Any US citizen can name all the states, place them on a map and name their capitals.'

They do not have to sing along.

And many, many US nationals cannot name all 50 states or their capitals, unfortunately, or tell you where they are.

But that's neither here nor there.

France is a strong democracy and this regulation passed with popular support, so frankly I think people in the UK, who live in glass houses, shouldn't really hurl stones.

Burqa ban discussed on Newsnight now.

Cuddly lefties on Newsnight buttering up the public for something similar to what Sarkozy is doing?

I admire the French way of engineering the society they want (by democratic choice) even in the face of such controversy. And while in principle I'm against men dictating what women should wear (was the law brought into being entirely by men anyway? Unlikely..), why on earth WOULD a woman choose to wear one of those things? I feel very uneasy about the possibility of misogynistic elements of Islam permeating our culture if we are too afraid to object, and while this ban is a sledgehammer to crack a nut I think it's going in the right direction

Agree with both Indiestarr and Forkful.

I don't agree with you being oppresses but I'll support your right to be oppressed if you choose to be...

I was at a feminist meeting tonight and the subject came up. Lots of differing views there too. My gut instinct is still that I am glad France has taken this step. If men wore the burkha too I wouldn't have an issue (though I might not understand it) but there is a distinct lack of men concealing themselves so that their only their wife can enjoy their body and face, at least where I live anyway...

This is also oppression.
It is not up to the state to tell different religions how and when they are allowed to express their beliefs in the form of dress.
Better to tackle the extreme islamists who enforce this so that the women who wear it have made an active choice and those who don't want to can stop wearing it. I don't understand all the 'its threatening' nonsense etc. Some of those women in France will feel naked without it and it is their right to feel comfortable in their own skin. Sarkozy is an idiot to implement this when the situation in the Middle east is so volatile he is just stoking the fire.

noddyholder "It is not up to the state to tell different religions how and when they are allowed to express their beliefs in the form of dress."

in the secular society it is exactly up to the state to 'tell different religions' the rules to protect the principle of secularism

" Any US citizen can name all the states, place them on a map and name their capitals."
Haha - not the American woman I was at a dinner party with who assured everyone that New England was a state...

!

I love the way you made that point, bebe.

Then why is this ok?

This is not about the preservation of a secular society. It is about Sarkozy hijacking the Islamaphobia prevalent in France and other western countries and exploiting for his own ends.

Although I have to say, there have been some good arguments for the ban which have really made me think... It's just that this isn't one of them.

Sarko is indeed not doing it for the right reasons. That doesn't mean there are no right reasons.