Why are society's restrictions on men's appearance never mentioned?

[Cattleprod]

I've seen and participated in a number of discussions over the past year or so, on mumsnet and real life, which have focussed on stereotypical expectations of womens and girls appearance based on gender. The overwhelming sea of pink in girls clothes shops, shaving/waxing various body parts, 'princess' type slogans, cosmetic surgery, length of skirts, high heels, styles of underwear, that sort of thing.

The point always comes up that it is unfair that so much value and judgement is placed on a woman's physical appearance, and of course it is terrible that anybody should be judged on physical or aesthetic aspects that they haven't chosen themselves, or have had forced on them by situation or society.

But it got me thinking, that although a lot of the unwritten expectations related to appearance, and the perhaps more sinister ones (eg. she was wearing a short skirt so was asking to be molested) relate to women, far more of the overt expectations, those that invite comment and even punishment, that I have come across have been applied to men and boys.

From the rule at my school that a boy's hair must not reach his collar, to the expectation in many offices that a man must wear a suit and tie, have short hair and be clean shaven, to my little boy being laughed at when I put a plain clip in his hair to keep it out of his eyes. Men just aren't as free to look different from 'the norm'. Any man that ventures out in a skirt, or lipstick, high heels, a pashmina etc. is likely to be met with incredulous stares and unpleasant comments, and in extreme cases, violence. Yet these are things that we as women can wear freely, safe in the knowledge that we can also choose to wear traditional mens clothing largely without derogotary comments (as Sandi Toksvig and many other women often do).

So, aside from obviously wanting to stamp out appearance-based prejudice that still exists as mentioned above, does there not seem to be the space or inclination for us as women to celebrate the fact that we do generally have more freedom than men to dress as we wish? I know there are boundaries set by religion, occupation, local society etc., but it is always the negative aspects of the spectrum of female appearance choices that are discussed, never the positive.

Not you Dragon, Carmina.

Oops.

Carmina - As was pointed out to you repeatedly on the other thread, it could be seen entirely differently. From where I am standing, you are refusing to embrace your femininity, but attempting to disguise it as much as possible, by shaving legs, etc. Anyway, let's not go over and over the same points again.

I'm with AyeRobot, Puffin and others who have pointed out that men are free to start their own sartorial campaigns. I'd be quite happy to support them. if only cos I'd love to see dh in a floral skirt

I don't agree with cosmetic surgery at all ( but god knows I could probably do with some ) - wearing make up is not something I consider 'wrong' - I don't wear much, just like having very long black eyelashes - is that bad?

Xposts - yes I'm completely wrong ( again )

Oh well

I think it's totally fine for someone of either gender to have black eyelashes and bright red nails if that's what they like, or indeed to paint any part of their body any colour they want. I am puzzled though as to why those things are considered more 'feminine' than leaving your body its natural colour. I don't think my normal-coloured nails are particularly masculine or unfeminine, they're just my nails . Same thing with shaved legs.

carmina, I love wearing mascara and all of that stuff, but I think the point is it's restrictive when these optional extras are presented as integral to femininity.

this reminds me of something that happened when I was at uni.
It was a very traditional Oxford college. There was a craze among some of the men for wearing skirts and dresses (my db, who was at another college and who is very slight and had long curly hair at the time, also used to do it to get into a particular nightclub free, as they charged entry for men not women). Must have been a early 90s thing I suppose.
Anyhow, the waiting staff complained about having to serve men wearing dresses at Formal Hall because they felt it detracted from the solemnity of the occasion, and they felt that they personally were being insulted by it, so the men staged a 'skirts in formal hall' protest where lots of other men who weren't normally into skirts joined in and wore skirts to hall.
The rebellion was quashed by the more leftie of the acadmics who argued that the whole thing was treating the (lowly paid and generally badly treated) hall staff with disrespect and that one had a particular responsibility to treat them well. (underpaying them was ok though I suppose).

you couldn't make it up, could you?!

Carmina - No it isn't bad! Who has said it is bad? We are discussing what constructs "femininity" and why men aren't "allowed" to wear women's clothing.

Why don't you answer ELNP's question?

I've been thinking of publicising a 'Rejecting masculinity' day on Facebook

I am trying to think of un-masculine things men can do but got stuck on:

Wear something bright pink

Read a chick lit novel on the tube/bus

Wear t shrt with feminist slogan

...etc??

No LittleRedDragon, it's my fault for not bothering to put a name in my post [lazy]

David - Wear a full face of make-up, shave legs, wear high heels

David, you know, the chick lit is a good one - I always find it really funny in waiting rooms to see which men will pick up a copy of Cosmo and have a good read, and which furtively sneak peeks at it! It'd be interesting to see the reactions you got if you read a bright pink chick-lit book on the tube - do it! Film it! Let us see!

narky - no worries, fast moving thread and carmina and I obviously have a fair amount in common about the way we like to dress, just different interpretations of it.

love it David.

-carry a handbag
-do needlework

Oh dear David. How about:

Men doing a mile stroll with their infant children in pushchairs, because men are able to care for young children and there's nothing emasculating about pushing a pram - men are just as capable of parenting.

Men talking about emotion and loss, because tears are not a sign of weakness, and the repression of emotion caused in part by society's intolerance of men expressing their feelings contributes to the high rate of male suicide.

Interesting that you see 'resisting masculinity' as 'doing (stereotypically) feminine things' David. I know you're joking but it's still quite telling about the notion of masculinity being defined as the absence of femininity etc...

No - I don't understand the difference between being female and the artificial concept of femininty.

If I left everything to nature I'd still look ok, just not as good as I do now. I look at some of the mums at my school and honestly they look awful - greying hair, no make up, totally uninspired clothing - it's almost as if they've given up. A little make up, a few bright accessories would really make a difference - liven them up a bit.

we have one life - make it full of excitement and colour.

Well I agree with those things too narky but you wouldn't want men to do them on just one day of the year

carmina - would dying my leg hair purple count as colour?

seth - PMSL. That's awful, but funny.

I'm guessing David was being tongue in cheek and I took it a bit too seriously.

It's threads like this that make me realise how long I have been a feminist for.
I've never lived a life which involves having to dress a particular way (I have worked for a clothing retailer and was told I had to wear make up or else, but simply didn't; I wore flats and mainly trousers). Anyone who's ever thought to tell me to be more feminine has been told no naff orf. I can think of two: one creepy colleague, and one friend who wondered if I might be sexually inhibited because I don't show a lot of flesh. No, I live in a cool country, ffs.

Ditto DH. He trims his beard a bit a few times a year, he wears the same clothes no matter the season, he refuses to work in the private sector because he'd have to wear a suit. I do see the point about him being unable to wear a skirt or make up, though.

Carmina I find it interesting how you're conflating groomedness with brightness and fun.

what about women who are very groomed but always wear dark rather lifeless clothes? And contrast that with someone who has fun with colour and patterns but has untidy hair and never wears make-up?

one of the mums at my school dresses like a bit of a biker chick normally and has fun with t-shirts and different trousers and jackets; sometimes she's there in her work clothes for her office job which are skirts, feminine tops, heels and make-up; she is way more vibrant and less groomed in her normal clothes than in her spirit-sapping office clothes which are clearly all about her fitting in.

It's curious that one of the very few fashion styles to have survived from the 80s is that of it being at least mildly acceptable for male goths/emos to wear make-up.

Admittedly, these days it tends to be limited to a bit of eye liner and maybe some black nail varnish rather than the full Robert Smith-esque lipstick and eye shadow look, but it's still hanging on in there.

Seth
I said earlier I dress Tom boyish ( boots/ trousers/ jackets - usually all black ) but I'll wear that with girly belts and a bright purple scarf, ( for example ) plus perfume and make up - I mix feminity with masculinity very well. I suppose with me I still like to look attractive - I'm not sure who I want to attract as I'm happily married - I just don't think there's anything worse than being 'invisable'

Oh and
Work clothing is different - we all have to confirm at work to a certain extent.

CB that is so judgy. How do you know those women's lives aren't exciting and colourful - they just may not show it though their clothes. Have you thought that may be they just can;t be bothered with clothes and all the rest of it, that they have other things in their lives?