Why are society's restrictions on men's appearance never mentioned?

[Cattleprod]

I've seen and participated in a number of discussions over the past year or so, on mumsnet and real life, which have focussed on stereotypical expectations of womens and girls appearance based on gender. The overwhelming sea of pink in girls clothes shops, shaving/waxing various body parts, 'princess' type slogans, cosmetic surgery, length of skirts, high heels, styles of underwear, that sort of thing.

The point always comes up that it is unfair that so much value and judgement is placed on a woman's physical appearance, and of course it is terrible that anybody should be judged on physical or aesthetic aspects that they haven't chosen themselves, or have had forced on them by situation or society.

But it got me thinking, that although a lot of the unwritten expectations related to appearance, and the perhaps more sinister ones (eg. she was wearing a short skirt so was asking to be molested) relate to women, far more of the overt expectations, those that invite comment and even punishment, that I have come across have been applied to men and boys.

From the rule at my school that a boy's hair must not reach his collar, to the expectation in many offices that a man must wear a suit and tie, have short hair and be clean shaven, to my little boy being laughed at when I put a plain clip in his hair to keep it out of his eyes. Men just aren't as free to look different from 'the norm'. Any man that ventures out in a skirt, or lipstick, high heels, a pashmina etc. is likely to be met with incredulous stares and unpleasant comments, and in extreme cases, violence. Yet these are things that we as women can wear freely, safe in the knowledge that we can also choose to wear traditional mens clothing largely without derogotary comments (as Sandi Toksvig and many other women often do).

So, aside from obviously wanting to stamp out appearance-based prejudice that still exists as mentioned above, does there not seem to be the space or inclination for us as women to celebrate the fact that we do generally have more freedom than men to dress as we wish? I know there are boundaries set by religion, occupation, local society etc., but it is always the negative aspects of the spectrum of female appearance choices that are discussed, never the positive.

High heels were invented to make women's legs look longer - men like long legs apparently- but women are not 'forced' to wear them - you have a choice.

Seth - compulsory femininity placed on women by male expectations - I pointed out that men have to conform to a fairly strict dress/grooming code too, - so it isn't a case of 'poor little oppressed women having to shave our legs' - men shave too. Therefore I felt my contributions were necessary. However if you want to take the patronising approach feel free.
HTH

Well, except when they're part of a dress code, carmina.

I like high heels. Interesting that the two must have brands (according to the mags) are designed by men! Wonder if Jimmy Choo stands all day in heels when he's working ,

men used to wear high heels a few centuries ago too - admittedly only the rich ones who could also afford to wear lots of satin and lace and jewels - and presumably it was so they could walk taller, but it also made them mince.

I have never worked in an environment that has a dress code beyond safe and sensible - I lived most of my working life in casual clothes and nearly always flat shoes - high heels would have been a distinct disadvantage from a H&S perspective in my job.

There was a case a few years ago where a man won a discrimination case against his employer because he was required to wear a tie and the women in the office were not.

Unfortunately this doesn't seem to have set a precedent - presumably because discrimination law works on a case by case basis (??)

K999 - there's an interview I read with Manolo Blahnick where he tells the interviewer (who didn't ask!) that he doesn't wear his own shoes, he's 'not so into that'. Made me smile!

LRD; what jobs have high heels as part of the dress code?

I've never worn high heels ( or skimpy clothing ) in my life - I've still attracted loads of men.

I think it's a very valid point and would be entirely in favour of men doing a 'resisting compulsory masculinity' experiment/discussion along the lines of the femininity one. I think ties are ridiculous and don't see why men shouldn't wear skirts if they want to (much more cool and comfortable in the summer).

But that has to come from them, and women should be able to talk about women's/feminist issues without feeling obliged to make it all about men.

Actually I thought high heels couldn't be part of a workplace dress code any more - though they certainly used to be. I might have got it wrong, but I seem to remember there was a law passed which was mocked in the Daily Mail etc as 'militant Labour feminists to force women to wear ugly shoes' or something . Maybe it was something that was proposed but not actually done?

A lot of the things you are talking about ie short hair for boys, no hair clips, no sign of anything 'feminine', are a direct result of gender stereotyping and misogyny. For males to adopt anything considered feminine is the worst sin. How many threads are there on here about fathers - or other mothers- who freak out at the idea of a DS having a toy pram or a doll? There have been threads about women who 'have' to buy new stuff for their baby, as they're having a boy and he can't use their DD's pink pram/baby clothes. The usual argument is that it might 'turn them gay', as obviously anything 'feminine' makes you less of a heterosexual male

I think if you're a woman flight attendant you have to wear heels (although not mega high ones).

It was something put forward by the TUC at the Labour Party conference I think Ephiny

When I was younger, I used to think it was great that women could dress in trousers or more masculine clothes, or skirt/dresses. I thought we had the better deal because we had more choice of clothing.

And to some extent I still feel this way.

However, the problem is why we have the choice. It's OK for women to want to be more like men and dress in their clothes, because it's a step up for us. It's not acceptable for a men to dress more like a women, because women's things are inferior and it's a laughable step down for men to want to dress in them.

This, I feel, is the central problem, and until we get to the root to why it's unaccaptable for men to be more like women, we'll never get equality.

Suits and ties, are really silly though and I have no idea why men inflict them on themselves. [shrugs]

Oh, sorry, my post is on the other page now. I know some shops require their staff to wear the clothes/shoes as part of their uniform. A mate of mine works in LK Bennett and says there's always a rush to put in for the flats, because everyone can't wear the same stuff.

I agree with you that high heels and stereotypically 'sexy' clothing isn't necessarily attractive to men - I think when it is attractive, it's often more because women think they look sexy and therefore behave that way, than because men notice it. I wear heels most of the time and most men I know don't notice - they're puzzled when I turn up in flats and suddenly 3 inches shorter, which kind of suggests they didn't realize the heels were there in the first place!

Correction, it was a motion put forward at the TUC conference

If men want to set up a "Blue is Poo" campaign, I would be happy to lend my support. Would be a bit odd for a woman to start one up, though, especially on a feminism board.

If the OP wants to set up a "Celebrate the satorial freedoms we have as woman", I would be happy to contribute, although would probably point out things such as the choice to wear a skirt as well as trousers isn't universal - see previous school uniform threads. Relative restrictions have been mentioned on the resisting femininity thread.

As for the men shaving thing - has no-one noticed how many men, especially younger ones, have facial hair these days?

That sounds likely ELNP, that's probably where I remember it from!

I've never worn high heels for work, though have worked in offices (and indeed on a huge trading floor) where I was definitely the only women not wearing them. That could probably be considered pressure, though I don't let that sort of thing affect me personally! Men did not routinely wear ties in these places, by the way.

Also at every single wedding and party and other 'smart' or formal event I've been to, as far as I can remember I've been the only women not wearing heels. Again personally I don't mind but imagine some women would feel badly-dressed and uncomfortable (though not half as uncomfortable as I'd be in heels :))

I remember a woman at work 'having' to sell all her baby stuff - not just clothes and bedding but cot, pram, car seat, baby bouncer etc - because they were 'for girls' (I assume pink) and her second child was going to be a boy. This was stuff only for the first few months anyway, so it seemed madness to me, it's not as though the baby would know or care! It's weird how horrified people are about any taint of femininity touching a boy, I think there's a good dose of homophobia in there as well as misogyny and the two things are very much entwined together.

For Red Nose Day DD's school did an "Opposite Day" to raise money. DD was seriously considering going dressed as a boy whereas I know that none of the boys in her class would have even dreamt of going dressed as a girl. The risk of ridicule was too great.

I did once work in an office where one particular chap sometimes came in wearing a sarong but it was an unusual place with no real dress code at all. I wore a kilt there once or twice.

Everywhere else it's generally been shirt and tie or, if you're lucky and you don't have any clients to see on a Friday, you could get away with a polo shirt and chinos. In my last job you could wear jeans and a fleece if you were going to be out on site (there was a lot of construction going on) or were having a day in the server room shifting kit around.

There's a longstanding idea that gay men are somehow more 'feminine'. It's homophobia. Men are taught from early on that they shouldn't express any preferance for 'feminine' things. I have a DH who was more into reading books than playing sports. His parents sent him to boarding school 'to toughen him up'. Yes, because if you're worried he is 'turning gay' sending him to live with hundreds of boys with no females around is the best thing to do .

Oh yes Epiphiny - I know a woman who bought a new potty for her 2yo son because the potty she already had (used 18 months previously by her daughter) was pink. Lunacy!

Yes LRD - confidence is what's sexy - not the shoes or the skirt.
If you're confident being a woman and embrace your femininity rather than reject it - you'll be a lot happier. I dress fairly Tom boyish, but I also have bright red nails and very long eyelashes ( thanks to masses of mascara ) I'm very happy being female - I don't see it as negative and something I should be resisting - one aspect of being female is you can have fun with clothes and make up, I can be creative - I love that. I don't want to be grey, dull ( and hairy ) - I want colour and fun!

I dunno ... I think confidence is what's sexy, but one of the things I liked from the other thread was the idea that we could try out other ways of being female and sexy that weren't the stereotypical 'must shave legs and armpits'. Being a dark-haired woman it's a right bugger shaving all the time and I did enjoy seeing that - as with heels - men honestly don't notice or care about these things half as much as you'd think.

Someone was talking about wearing a pretty dress with unshaven legs and what that was like, and I agree it's quite fun to do that and see the reaction.

Sorry, going off topic now I guess!

at Carmina. You will be asked to leave the feminism threads if you dont start agreeing soon!!

You really don't understand the difference between being female and the artificial concept of femininity?

Narky - me? I don't know, I think I understand the difference?