What's the solution to women ending up in unequal relationships?

[darleneconnor]

Sooooooo many threads on here.

Same story. All fine and dandy at first. Both partners believe in 'equality'.

Then she has a baby, goes on maternity leave and all that equality flies out the window. His life continues as before (work, leisure) hers is mindnumbing drudgery. She does all the housework, he keeps all the money.

Are we kidding ourselves that things have changed that much since the 50s?

(PS I know not all relationships are like this, but it isn't exactly uncommon)

What do you say to someone who's in this situation or heading that way? (At least without looking like a man-hater or jealous)

I really am despairing!!!

You're a barrel of laughs.....

Change the inequality, end the relationship, or put up with it.

haggis-you're a barrel of solutions

colditz- but how do these women force change?
ending a relationship and ending up homeless and penniless isn't much of an alternative is it?

LOL @ 'barrel of solutions'- quite true. Ignoring this very common problem will be entirely counterproductive.

i think female self-sacrifice is ingrained in the majority of women. Not me, I hasten to add- but then I lost full custody of my kids when I got divorced and decided to keep working.

Agree with colditz its the only way. Also I think in most relationships the warning signs are there before they have kids. Same as in abusive relationships men pick on women that they percieve in some way to be weak, or have lowered self esteem. They know some women will do anything to keep a man and they exploit that.

Also wouldnt you rather be a single mum than be a doormat? I know I would. There are plenty of decent men out there, expect more for yourself and believe that you are worth it.

I don't know darlene - I wish I did. Afraid one of my friend's relationships is heading that way, they don't have kids yet but e.g. when I go round for dinner she invariably cooks, and then she does the washing up (unless I do it). He will either ignore her doing it or offer to help in such a "oh i'm so tired but will struggle to the sink if need be" voice (both work full time in similar jobs) that she always declines.

I think one of the way to avoid getting into these relationships ourselves is to always expect as much from the other person as you expect from yourself. And accept offers of "service" :o by which I mean, cooking, cleaning, helping organise things - if you would do that thing for them, then let them do it for you too. Otherwise the message is that you will do everything for yourself and things for them too.

Elephants - your friend needs to stop declining and accept his offers. Until she does, she is creating the inequality.

I have found in RL Haggis some women do this and create the equality or support it. Its frustrating for an outsider but what can you do?

The solution is talking about it and raising awareness, including on here. And recognising that we work together and support one another on this, not just saying 'well get out of the relationship then, I did, and I'm alright jack'. That is a very individualistic way of looking at it, even if you are telling others to do it.

We need to change what is seen as 'normal' and the way to do that is to discuss our experiences that are hidden away in the private domain. I'm not that big on telling others what they should be doing, so much as telling them my experience so they can see theirs is not the only way or necessarily 'normal'. I think mumsnet is extremely powerful in doing this. Women are kept in many unfavourable positions by not knowing that others aren't and we can now communicate that widely.

I too am shocked just how common the set up you describe is.

Haggis - she probably declines the offer because the penalties for accepting such a gracious offer are greater than any benefits his token effort of help provides her.

Why can't these men just help? Why is it down to the woman to police this type of behaviour? Why can't the men be responsbile for and change their behaviour when it is upsetting the person they are supposed to love?

I want to show through people talking about it that it isnt a normal situation and not how a decent man acts. It was good to see when a situation was described which was very unequal on one of the mothers day threads lots of women were quick to say the man was in the wrong, and thats not how normal decent men behave and how it happens in their relationship.

It isnt 'normal' and if it is unfortunately the woman has had poor models to base her relationships of, which isnt her fault. However I hope that women in these situations can realise this so they dont pass on that message to their own children.

'Why can't these men just help? Why is it down to the woman to police this type of behaviour? Why can't the men be responsbile for and change their behaviour when it is upsetting the person they are supposed to love?'

Like a bully goes for the weak, some men go for women who they think will be doormats. The best way to counteract this is for the woman to have high self esteem to realise she is worth more than that. If you give off the vibes of being a strong, confident, independent women then you will attract decent men who wouldnt take you for a ride. Then there is no need to police their behaviour. I think this can come from the woman having decent role models growing up (which I realise some people werent lucky enough to have, but those women can change that for their own children), also through educating these women that they are worth more.

Abso bloody lutely Scallops

Yes, Scallops, exactly, she is not "creating the inequality" - she is just not forcing it to stop. He could stop the inequality by getting his ass to the shops/the sink/the washing machine.

It is up to men to be decent people who clear up their own messes and ACTIVELY refuse to accept services being given to them because they are men, rather than just because it's part of normal relationship give and take. I mean, if you never cook a meal (or once in a blue moon), never wash your own clothes, never go to the shop - surely you'd notice? If only in how much free time you've suddenly got now you're in a relationship.

Yes, noodle. Self-esteem is the key, I think. I have only behaved like this (domestic drudge queen) when my self-esteem was rock bottom and I was at home too much - not-coincidentally this is exactly the way many women's lives become when they are pregnant/on ML.

cause they know about what they are doing. They just dont respect you enough to do it off your own back because they think they can walk all over you.

Sorry I was going to say why didnt you see it as you were carrying his child for him which is the most important job in the world. He should be thanking you for what you are doing, and not be taking the piss if he did then the woman should say I dont think this is fair etc. Same goes for on ML.

So surely the (long-term) solution is to teach your sons not to treat any woman like this rather than teach your daughters to have self-esteem. The latter still puts the onus in the woman's corner rather than in the man's corner where the problem really lies.

Although to help women who find themselves in these situations then undoubtedly the best strategy is to get them to find their self-esteem or at least make them understand why they don't have any (because it has been eroded away).

"If you give off the vibes of being a strong, confident, independent women then you will attract decent men who wouldnt take you for a ride." That is just not true. Strong, confident women are being targeted all the time by physically and emotionally abusive men. Do a search for MollFlanders on here - a very successful business woman from a loving family. There are plenty of self-employed/high earners all over this board that are being abused by their partners. They wouldn't be in their jobs if they weren't confident and capable.

you can be confident and capable in one area but still not think you are worthy of relationships. You have to believe you deserve a good man, stand up for your rights, dispute anything a man does that you dont agree with regardless of whether you are on ML, pregnant or any other reason.

Also you can be confident and capable to do a high earning job or anything else but often the person doesnt believe inside that they are confident and capable. Thats the difference.

I don't know what the solution is, but I disagree the situation arises because of low self-esteem per se.

I think it is because for the majority, the default setting is the model set by the parents, be that for the women who see their mothers doing the lion's share of housework or the men who see their fathers letting or expecting the women to do that. Of course this has an effect on a subconscious level, it's what we've grown up with, in the main. So for all the high-minded words and agreements pre-babies that it will be an equal division of labour, you're essentially battling against defaulting to the subconscious psychological bedrock that conflicts with the consciously-held opinions at a deeper level, and this conflict is often unackowledged by either or both parties. It's like parenting styles - you can try and parent differently than your parents did but that takes conscious effort and self-awareness rather than just following the 'template' already ingrained.

I think good relationships can go bad for this reason, resentment simmers away as the woman finds herself stuck with a deal she didn't sign up to, and the man resents the woman as she's unhappy and "nagging" at him all the time... But I don't think 'leave him' is necessarily the answer. It's about getting the issue out in the open and revisiting it as often as need be to try and get that shift. You're also battling the societal construct on a simplistic level of the whole virgin-mother-whore thing, in my view - once you have kids then it's easy for the man to 'recategorise' his partner as the 'mother' and all that goes with it - what defines 'mother'? House, home, kids etc... again harking back to how his mother behaved growing up.

So I guess the long-term solution is changing things now so that the next generation have better, more equal role-models? Which is why we get the grief now as a lot of us don't want to take this lying down... But I don't know what the short term solution is, apart from lots of dialogue and effort, which is only going to work if the man is willing to change the status quo.

I do agree it is how your mother and father behave growing up. I think that is why it seems like an alien concept to me why a woman would accept this. I think that is a good thing though because it shows all those people who do manage to fight against what they have always known that when their children grow up they will think like me and will find it strange that a woman would put up with this. So all though it might be hard, its a brilliant gift to your children, and to society.

The attitude to single/divorced status is what it needs to change. Many women think that is better to be in a bad relationship than alone even when the practical/financial side is ok or even better if they go solo (many women support unemployed and useless at home men just for the sake of having a man at home).

But it is other women who do this, look at all the threads about single mothers, 'broken homes', 'married=happy and respected', 'bitter unmarried/divorced woman', the desperate dating etc.

Noodle, you can believe all of those things and still end up in an abusive relationship. It is insulting that you think women in abusive relationships do not think that they "deserve a good man". How do you think that kind of comment makes people who have escaped an abusive relationship feel? Abusive relationships creep up on people. Certain behaviours become "normalized" and gradually get worse so that the victim barely notices it happening (or may have an inkling but can't put their finger on it).

"dispute anything a man does that you dont agree with" that can be exhausting for a start and probably won't get you anywhere. In an abusive situation it would more than likely be turned around on to you so it was your fault and in some circumstances would be dangerous. If you are lucky enough to be able to spot the red flags then you will probably get out of a relationship early but if you have been brought up with parents teaching you these red flags are the norm then they are much more difficult to spot. They are also much easier to spot from outside a relationship where feelings and emotions aren't involved.

Confidence is all well and good but it is fluid. You can have it and you can lose it - through circumstance and situation.

Also, I think women are judged much more on the state of their homes than men are - the home shows on TV sell this aspirational ideal of immaculate perfection that are generally targeted a female audience. That 'sells' this idea that a woman should be looking after that side of thing... I'm thinking of Kirstie Allsop's show, for instance.

But if you can agree on realistic standards with your partner than life can feel less unequal as you both know what is expected. Too often you end up trying to live up to this ideal that is utterly unattainable, and you're not both working to the same goals. You can also end up taking on jobs that aren't actually essential - is it unequal because she's taking on more than she needs to because that's what TV, magazines, etc are telling her good mothers/wives do, not because the man is expecting her to?

Another example of how inequality can arise where basic expectations/standards differ - husband may really not be that bothered by the Coke cans piling up on the bottom shelf. He'll take them out when there's a few of them to take out at once or no more space on the shelf, while the wife might find it irritating that they keep appearing and cluttering the house, perceiving that they are being left for her to clear up - but by removing them she's self-fulfilling that expectation... I'm not saying either leaving cans for ages or clearing them daily is right or wrong, but finding a way forward both can live with and agree would be the ideal, rather than attribute motivation.