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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

junior doctors ...

86 replies

eldritch · 18/03/2011 08:44

My first post in this area so please be gentle! Grin

Last night I was watching a fly on the wall documentary about a group of junior doctors starting out on their first jobs. One of them is female, 24, blonde, attractive, likes to wear pink shoes, has a pink stethoscope etc. On her first day on the ward someone changes her name on the spreadsheet to "Barbie" and colours it pink. The next day she finds someone has drawn on her staff photo on a noticeboard, giving her a crown, silly hairstyle etc. She is clearly gutted but tries to laugh it off. The prevailing attitude from the other doctors (mostly male, but some female) is that she should just suck it up. She does.

I was Angry and Sad that she was treated like this as she was clearly good at her job and had worked really hard to get this far. In my workplace (public sector, but not hospital) this kind of thing would be seen as sexist bullying and taken very seriously, but it seemed to be pretty normal there. For me the most disturbing thing was that her supervisor seemed to be the ringleader in all this.

I wondered if they might have edited it a bit to make it look more dramatic than it was (the whole episode was about identity), but the reactions did seem pretty real to me.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this as it's still preoccupying me this morning! Is this just banter, and do women have to put up with this in some professions? I really thought this kind of macho doctor culture had died out but clearly not ...

OP posts:
karmakameleon · 18/03/2011 12:27

But why gentle ribbing when you can just say it to someone?

I've had to have difficult conversions with people at work and it's not nice. But much better for then to have a frank conversation than for their boss to take the piss out of them. Surely? Or do people really prefer having the piss taken out of them endlessly?

Also I think it's important to remember it's her decision at the end of the day. You can give advice but she may not take it and that would have to be the end of the conversation. When does the piss taking stop? I assume, when she either leaves or makes a formal complaint?

karmakameleon · 18/03/2011 12:30

For those people who don't think it seemed like bullying, I was initially a bit Shock to find out that for an industrial tribunal the complaintant doens't have to prove any objective test of being harmed. They just have to demonstrate that they were harmed.

So if she's upset, it's bullying. Doesn't matter if someone else would have been upset in the same circumstances.

meditrina · 18/03/2011 12:33

I think dress codes are important as then it is clear that breaches should be dealt with within normal procedures. If you don't, then it may still be perceived as inappropriate but instead of normal supervisory/training functions applying, the pack steps in and the result is what was described.

The problem with editing is that we do not know what wasn't shown. If it was 100% of the baying pack, but only 1% of how that pack was dealt with at the time, then we get little idea of the true dynamic.

karmakameleon · 18/03/2011 12:37

If the "pack steps in" the pack should be stopped, and the pack certainly shouldn't include the supervisor as has been described. That is what anti bullying and harassment codes are about. I think they are more important than dress codes, wouldn't you agree?

Re the editing, you cannot edit to make bullying magically appear. It either happened or it didn't. You can edit so you don't show how it was dealt with, I agree. But just because the bullying was dealt with appropriately, doesn't mean it never happened.

meditrina · 18/03/2011 12:43

Karma - agree, but if it was dealt with (and we don't know) then we'd have a rather different view. Formal disciplinaries are very unlikely to be televised.

karmakameleon · 18/03/2011 12:48

Of course we don't see a formal disciplinary but usually ime on TV we are told it has happened. Most of these things aren't dealt with formally btw. They are dealt with informally by the manager but in this case he seems to be part of the problem rather than the solution.

Ealingkate · 18/03/2011 12:49

Yes, the supervisor should say something to her about the pink obsession.
He was however, supportive and took an opportunity to express his confidence in her after she had an upsetting incident with a male patient who questioned her judgement.
Having not seen it karmakameleon, I don't understand how you be so sure that it was bullying

Original poster
eldritch · 18/03/2011 12:49

Wow, lots of food for thought here, thank you Smile.

OP posts:
Ealingkate · 18/03/2011 12:54

eldritch please tell us that you're not "Call me Suzi"

karmakameleon · 18/03/2011 12:54

I'm just going by what the OP describes, but the key thing I'm taking in here is that she is "clearly gutted but tries to laugh it off."

As I said, as far as the law is concerned, the only thing that matters is that she is upset and because she is upset, it is a matter of bullying. I think if more people realised this, workplaces would be a much better place.

I feel strongly about this because I have seen so many examples of workplace bullying I can't count. Some were dealt with well and some badly but all had significant impacts on the people at the receiving end and often people who weren't directly victims but witnessed the incidents.

Bluegrass · 18/03/2011 13:00

She has a very "girly" way of presenting herself and seemed overly keen to be liked. Compare her to the other female doctors and nurses and she stood out as coming across like a child. I expect she will learn, and age will help, but part of the job is presenting yourself in a way that inspires confidence and trust and doesn't just make people think "aaaw bless!".

Skifit · 18/03/2011 13:02

Whichever menber of staff called he Barbie and put it as her name on the board is a total idiot....and surely its a male.
Bit mean, I think, although at the time I watched it I was thinking he/she didnt mean any harm...
However for a female working in, what used to be i a total male environment (1800's) it is unfair to name call in such a sexist way.
I reckon she should have had a serious word with the culprit.

ChishAndFips · 18/03/2011 13:03

Haven't seen this episode yet, so I can't comment on that, but on the subject of the the pink stethoscope, DD1 who is at medical school recently bought a stethoscope. She would have really loved a pink one, she even has pink saucepans etc, but chose to buy a dark red one because she though that pearly pink would not be professional and that patients might not trust her as much if she seemed like a little girl, not a doctor (in the future). Well for the reasons Voddy gives really. It's interesting to see some others views on it.

Skifit · 18/03/2011 13:16

VODDY.

She is young, she likes pink...what the hell....just cos she likes pink trainers and has a bloomin pink stethoscope doesnt mean she is girlie and should be treated that way and not respected as a professional Doctor....for goodness sake...

Skifit · 18/03/2011 13:23

"Patients might not trust her as much if she seemed like a girl...."{ChishAndFips)
well, imo , I think you shouldnt judge a book by its cover to such an extent. She jolly well know her stuff though.....very knowledgeable..
She is young though.. . . . . .
I am 50yrs and if I was being examined by a Junior Doc I wouldnt think twice about her "girlieness", I would just know she is a junior doctor and still deserves the respect of a professional who is highly trained and qualified. . . .and I wouldnt bat an eye about her pink stethoscope..
What would concern me more would be big Jon (the overweight one) coming over to examine me. . . .worried about his obeseness Confused

Gooseberrybushes · 18/03/2011 13:26

EalingKate seems v sensible on this.

If a guy turned up dressed like David Hasselhoff with a bouffant hairstyle he'd probably get the same.

Voddy · 18/03/2011 13:31

Well Skifit, that's the way it is I'm afraid. The fact is, going by the OP, she is not being respected as a professional doctor. As I said, it's wrong but it is the way things are, like it or not.

AyeRobot · 18/03/2011 13:35

God forbid that anyone challenges the notion that having a pink stethoscope means that you're not a good doctor.

Gooseberrybushes · 18/03/2011 13:39

"the only thing that matters is that she is upset and because she is upset, it is a matter of bullying."

I don't know about this, I don't like bullying but it should be more objective than entirely dependent on the level of someone's sensitivity

Ealingkate · 18/03/2011 13:40

Which hospital are they all working in??

EngelbertFustianMcSlinkydog · 18/03/2011 13:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Voddy · 18/03/2011 13:46

Ayerobot - I don't think having a pink steth means you're not a good doctor. But I do think that some people will not take you seriously if you dress overtly girly. I'm not sure why that's even being questionned really as my reading of the OP is that the woman isn't being treated with professional respect.

Saltatrix · 18/03/2011 13:48

It's not just the stethoscope she comes across a little childish and it can make people a little worried thinking that their life is in this persons hands. People want to have the upmost confidence in their doctor but acting in a certain way with all the pink to accentuate it even more doesn't really help inspire confidence. Of course the other staff recognise this, and so struggle to take her seriously as she is undermining herself unknowingly.

The same rules applies to any doctor the way they present themselves is the the way people will percieve them.

ChishAndFips · 18/03/2011 13:52

I never said you couldn't be a good doctor if you have a pink stethoscope. However, that is the way SOME patients will view a female doctor. Her abilities as a doctor are not going to depend on the colour of her stethoscope, but surely if a patient feels she isn't as competent because of it, then she is not being the best doctor she can be, because her patient doesn't trust her. Nothing to do with her actual ability, it's just how the patient perceives it. I don't see it as any different to doctors dressing smartly, to give a professional appearance.

karmakameleon · 18/03/2011 13:52

Gooseberrybushes, that the law as per the lawyer who took the anti bullying and harassment course I went on at work yesterday Grin. Was a very good course and compulsory for everyone in our workplace. Not surprisingly, the employer I've had that deals with bullying best is the one I'm with now.

As I say, I was a bit Shock when she first said this but after a bit of contemplation it does make a lot of sense. Different people have different things they are sensitive about and just because you may not be upset about something, doesn't mean that I'm not. It doesn't take a huge amount of empathy to understand that you are upsetting someone by a particular comment or behaviour and if you are, why would you not stop? It just seems like common decency to me.