Do you think this is the beginning of an abusive relationship?

[Beachcomber]

Hello feminists. I'm looking for a bit of help on a family issue that is troubling me, if you would be so kind.

Background - I have a younger SIL who is a slightly odd person (I think she is borderline SN). She is very passive and often gives the impression that she doesn't actually make decisions based on thinking about what she actually wants - she just sort of goes with the flow.

SIL is getting married this year to her boyfriend. They have been together for about 4 years.

Boyfriend (to be known as BF from here on) is pretty odd himself. He comes across as an odd mixture of deeply insecure and kind of smug and pleased with himself. (Can you tell I don't like him?!).

Anyway here are the things he does to SIL that make me uncomfortable with their relationship;

Very quickly after they started living together he changed job and found another one at the other end of the country. He openly said that he thought SIL needed to move away from her mother as she is too dependant on her. This move means that SIL is now an 8 hour car drive from all her friends and family. (SIL was dependant on her mother but I think the reason for this is her borderline SN behaviour.)

BF is very very overweight - he comments on what (very slim) SIL eats and makes 'jokey' "are you sure you should be having that darling" type comments when she takes a second helping/has dessert.

BF tends to order SIL about, rather than get up and get something himself he asks her to go and get it. (This may be linked to his weight but it is pretty sad to see in a young couple in their 20s).

He gets very irritated with SIL over things like how to work their camera/set the satnav/whatever. He loves electronic gadgets and likes to patronise her about them. He likes to make comments along the lines of "how many times have I told you how to do blah blah blah" - this will be said in a pained patronising way, usually about some gadgety technical aspect of some gadget that SIL couldn't give a shit about.

We went to visit them recently and stayed for a weekend. He shouted at SIL for cutting an onion in the wrong way and banged his fist down hard on the kitchen counter. (He was careful to do this when my DH was out of the flat). He asked me at one point if I knew "how to get my own way all the time" and then said "like this" whilst twisting SIL's arm up her back and pinching her (I don't think he was actually hurting her). He did this as though it was a joke.

Later on we were sitting in the living room having dessert and when he finished he held his bowl out for SIL to put down on the table - he didn't look at her or ask her if she could do it, he just held the bowl out (he was watching TV). She wordlessly got out of her chair and put his bowl on the table even though HE was closer to the table than she was.

They are getting married this year and we were told the other day who the witnesses are to be. (We are in France where normally the bride and groom have two witnesses each). SIL doesn't really have any very close girlfriends and it seemed pretty obvious to me that she would have her brother (my DH, her only sibling) as one of her witnesses, they are quite close. It is very common in France to have one's sibling as a witness.

Anyway, BF announced that they are not having any family members as it would cause too much upset in his (very large) family. SIL's witnesses are to be a couple - long term friends of his that SIL only knows through him. None of us have ever met them or even heard very much about them. Basically he has chosen all 4 of the witnesses.

There is other stuff but I think you get the gist. They are in their 20s, he is about 5 years older than her.

I'm deeply uncomfortable with the situation although can't do anything about it really.

Thanks for any feedback.

Beachcomber - I don't have much helpful to say, so hopefully others will come along, but yes those examples did make me wide eyed and concerned. The onion and arm thing when your partner wasn't there I find particularly disturbing, amongst the pattern.

Sigh, it really doesn't sound good. The isolation thing is a bad starting point. Have you met any friends of this man, or his family? That can say a lot about someone.

Thank you AliceWorld. The onion thing was the incident that made me shift from "I don't like you but that is my personal issue and nowt to do with SIL" to "I am worried about my SIL".

SIL is very quiet and subdued - she is not coming across as a happy young women who is about to get married.

I have met his parents. They are a bit odd. They are quite like him really. They like to tell long boring stories about their family/the place they are from/the car journey they just went on - they expect everybody to sit in rapt admiring silence whilst they do so. They don't come across as actively nasty.

Have also met his best friend (who he is having as a witness at the wedding). He seems perfectly nice but also slightly odd. He is a bachelor in his early 30s and spends A LOT of time with them.

Yes, lots of red flags there. I'm afraid that all the signs are yes, this is the beginning of an abusive relationship. I hope she's not planning children with this guy.

the warning signs

Did you tell your dh about the onion incident?

There are things you could do.

Make sure SIL knows that you don't believe her BF is treating her right. But make sure that she knows you will always be there for her.

Tell family/friends of your concerns. Not your feeling but the facts of what you witnessed.

Get your DH involved. An abuser's power is very much diluted if the victim has strong RL support. Funny how he moved her so far away from the family/friends isn't it?

Make sure she knows she has support, make sure BF knows she has support.

Make sure she knows she could even call off the wedding and that she will have your complete support.

Tell her about mumsnet - point her to the Relationships Board - where there are loads of people in marriages like the one she's going into.

Good luck

It's not the beginning of an abusive relationship, it's a full blown abusive relationship.

He's isolated her and he's picking her apart and he's controlling her.

fully established abusive relationship, imo.

Question is, what, if anything, can you do about it?

Is her sn something that you could argue makes her a vulnerable person and grounds for you to step in?

Thank you for your comments. You are confirming what I think.

I have told my PIL about the incidents that concern me. Unfortunately they seem determined to think that I have taken against this man due to cultural differences. We spoke about this last night and they also said that 'Beachcomber doesn't like men and that is why she doesn't like him'. They think this because I am a feminist and no doubt have made the odd feminist comment in their presence. They also seem to think that I hate all men because my parents are divorced and my mother is a bitter 'all men are bastards' type.

I have tried to explain that it is nothing to do with me liking him or not. It is not about my feelings for him - it is about actions of his that make me concerned for my SIL.

PIL seem determined that all is well and that they are young and need to figure their way of being together out. I think they are quite keen on the idea of SIL being married because they think it will be security for her - they are in denial about her borderline SN.

I have explained to DH and he agrees with me although he is not as concerned as I am (yet). He knows about all the incidents and agrees that this behaviour is very wrong. He has spoken kindly to SIL to try to ask her if she is OK/happy/sure she wants to get married. She is very passive and non committal.

We have both told SIL that she doesn't deserve to be treated like that and I hope she knows that we are very very there for her.

They are planning on having a baby soon after they are married.

I feel like I'm standing uselessly watching a car crash with my SIL in it. I am going to find it very difficult to go to their wedding.

Her being so far away makes things much worse.

Oh bollocks - have just read mumonthenet's link. He is a loser isn't he?

Just remembered another thing that made me very very worried.

He told me at Christmas that the reason he doesn't drink is because he gets violent when he has too much. He told me this quite cheerfully and almost seemed to think that I would be impressed by what 'a man' he is.

To be fair he never drinks alcohol (he just drinks A LOT of fizzy pop which is not helpful with his obesity).

He definitely behaves differently towards women and men. He would NEVER try to patronise DH they way he does with me (despite the fact that I am older than him, have two kids, etc).

I think that the only thing you can do is to get your DH to understand the things that you saw when he was not there and to understand what is going on and become as concerned as you. It is far more likely that his parents and sister will listen to him than you.

If your SIL is that passive then TBH she's not going to do anything off her own bat is she. It will take someone with more influence than her BF telling her what to do. And that's not great is it.

What an awful situation.

That is good advice SardineQueen. Last night I didn't say very much because I was so bloody angry at the 'Beachcomber doesn't like men' comment which was out of order beyond belief for all sorts of reasons.

DH said a few things and MIL admitted that she tends to fall out with BF most times they see him.

SIL is indeed passive to a point where she would need to be told what to do in order to leave this man.

I don't think she has really decided to marry him IYSWIM she is just following a route. He bought her a ring that she wore on her engagement finger within weeks of meeting her. They didn't officially say it was an engagement ring but hinted to that effect. I remember at the time thinking 'what sort of emotionally immature/stunted loser does that sort of thing'. I also remember quickly thinking that he got a ring on her finger ASAP in order to 'claim' her and pressure her.

It is indeed an awful situation.

Let the "beachcomber doesn't like men" be water off a duck's back. After all, you are married to their son, so you can't hate them that much

Take it for what it was as a silencing tactic, they just didn't like what you were saying. Because if you are right, and their daughter is about to get hitched to an abusive man, then that is really upsetting for them. Easier not to see it.

If your MIL is starting to see your point / your DH gets more concerned and keeps talking then maybe something can be done.

for you and for SIL

You are very wise SardineQueen.

You are right, it was a silencing tactic. I was angry I think because I recently (after years of knowing them) opened up a bit to my PIL about my childhood (alcoholic depressed violent suicidal mother). I feel that they have used this new knowledge about me in a manipulative and thoroughly unpleasant way. I also think they are being a bit stupid - logically my childhood should make me hate women right?

Anyway I don't hate anybody and have a very nice father and a great DH.

I bit my tongue in order not to fall out with PIL as I think SIL's situation is much more important than my hurt feelings.

They would, of course, much rather attack me than admit what they are allowing to happen to their daughter. I suspect that this is a bit of a house of cards thing - if they admit she is in an abusive relationship they will have to admit that she is borderline SN.

Yep, that incident is chilling; he was testing whether or not you would stand up for her - whether or not she has anyone who will.

Oh I stood up for her with both the arm twisting and the onion thing. Both times I ignored him, asked SIL if she was alright and said that she didn't have to accept behaviour like this from him. He really doesn't like me.

I agree he is testing me to see how much power he can hold over me too to see how much I will stand up for her.

Recently he has started 'watching' me and SIL when we have conversations (not often as we don't see them a lot). At Christmas, most times I started to speak to her he came over and leant on her shoulder and said stuff like 'so what are you girls chatting about?'.

Unfortunately he brings out the worst in me and I found myself saying things like 'oh I was just telling SIL about my awful period pains/cracked nipples when breastfeeding/incontinent grandmother'. A couple of times I have said curtly 'nothing that is any business of yours' - but I don't want to antagonise him and make things difficult for SIL.

You're right dittany - he probably was hurting her or at the very least letting her know that he could hurt her. Fucker.

Nice to see you guys too. I do lurk and read but don't have a lot of time for posting at the moment.

Just a quick response as I'm at work but I was in an abusive relationship for 5 years.

The biggest problem for me was normalising the behaviour that I experienced.

Some suggestions, if you are able to do this - invite her to stay by herself (realise that's unlikely with him being so controlling) and get 'normal' couples around so that she can see what is normal and what is not. I forgot totally that it wasn't normal to be screamed at and have things thrown around every weekend after it had happened to me a few times. I just thought 'here we go again'.

One book that I found extremely useful was Patricia Evans 'The Verbally Abusive Relationship'. I read it after I'd finally walked away but wish I'd read it before. Can you give her a copy surreptitiously?

Validation, validation, validation - which it sounds like you are trying to do. I had a constant feeling of being 'off balance'. I knew his behaviour wasn't right but he was very clever in justifying everything he did. And the longer it went on, the more I was brainwashed. I needed people to tell me that my gut instincts were right and I think this is where the 'off balance' feeling came in; I was constantly ignoring them, or trying to ignore them, which gave me this odd feeling.

Telling her that his behaviour is not normal and getting her to see what normal really is would be very helpful. She needs to be reminded that his controlling and bullying behaviour is not the way a relationship should be.

Another problem is that when they are nice, they seem even nicer than they really are because the rest of the time they're being controlling & bullying. They throw a crumb every now and then and we gratefully accept. "But he did this for me....and he did that....yes, ok he twisted my arm up behind my back but he was so sorry later and he bought me some flowers...."

Perhaps she'll think he'll change. That was another reason why I hung on in there. He was going to sort out his anger management problems. The day I realised he was never going to change was the day I kicked him out for good and didn't speak to him again.

If I can recommend anything, it's getting her to stay with you, you going to stay with her, remind her of what normality is. Buy her Patricia Evans book.

Sorry, I'm not sure what "SN" is so if I've missed something really important then I apologise!

Its sounds like one, they often start with the abused being isolated away from family/friends it breaks down the support network so the abused eventually becomes a lonely, empty shell of a person and allow abuse to happen.

the bit that also struck was only having his family at the wedding, why is SIL and you DH standing for this??

It sounds awful. The idea of a child coming into this mess is chilling.

It seems to me (following on from SardineQueen) that the key actor has to be your DH. How worried is he? My instinct is that you need to get SIL away from her P for a while, regardless of her P's protests. I'd almost be ready to propose a semi-kidnap. It sounds like she'd be relieved. Of course, I have no idea of whether that is remotely feasible, but this seems to me to be the key time, before the marriage goes ahead and they have a child. It only gets harder.

Everything everyone said.

Also - that Patricia Evans book is really good - read it yourself - and get your dh to read it so he can get an idea of what you're up against. Get two copies, one for Sil and one for yourselves!

This kind of abuse is often so hard to recognise as much of it is wrapped up in the everyday ups and downs. The BF's comment about alcohol making him violent is an example. On the one hand he was suggesting to you that he was clever and strong for resisting the lure of alc, on the other hand he was making a kind of veiled threat.

I also am not sure what SN is?

Thank you all again. I'm reading and taking in advice. Hi Jess - thanks for your input will follow your advice.

She does sometimes come to visit PIL on her own. Her BF isn't really controlling as far as that is concerned. In a way he doesn't have to be because the distance/cost factor mean that she doesn't come often.

Just to clear a couple of things up;
SN = special needs. DH and I both think that SIL is not entirely 'all there' IYSWIM. There are reasons in her childhood health that make this a probability plus her behaviour now. She seems unable to drive a car for instance - she failed her test five times and then totalled MIL's car a few weeks after she finally past her test. She has never really driven since. She has trouble holding down a job - she is often 'let go' for not very well explained reasons. It is difficult to put my finger on but she has a general all round lack of gumption and decision making ability.

The wedding - we are invited, all the family are. It is going to be a massive do as BF has a huge extended family and it is the done thing in his culture to have gigantic weddings (last count over 200). The no family thing was just about the witnesses - he has decided that they will not have any family members as witnesses as it will cause upset in his family over who gets chosen (he seems to think that they are all dying to be his best man and will be terribly hurt when not asked). That is all fine and well for his family but I don't see why SIL should have to bide by this rule. The only person she has who is in any real way close enough to her to be a witness is her brother. I'm fairly certain that left to her own devices she would have asked DH to be her main witness. They get 4 witnesses between the two of them and all of them are people that come from his life.

DH is worried but not as much as me - he hasn't seen the most extreme behaviour. He does entirely believe what I tell him but it is not the same as seeing it I suppose.

BF can of course be very charming and amiable so it is sometimes hard to imagine him being abusive. Even I find myself swinging sometimes and questioning if things are as bad as I think (hence this thread).

DH would step in immediately if he thought there was any violence or if he thought his sister wanted out of the situation but was unable to get herself out.

SIL doesn't seem terribly bothered by any of this behaviour. She does sometimes get cross with him and my PIL keep telling me that she stands up to him and they bicker/argue like any normal couple. They claim that SIL more than stands up for herself. I have never seen this sort of behaviour from her however. I could imagine that they might bicker over something like what film to go to at the cinema and SIL may well get her own way. She doesn't seem to get to decide the big stuff though like where she is going to live and how her partner is going to treat her.

Will definitely get the book thanks.

SIL is French so couldn't read it in English, I could look for a translation. I think she would probably show it to BF if I gave her a copy however. (Not that I care with regards to what BF thinks of me but I would hate it to make things difficult for her.)

I suspect it would end with PIL finding out (SIL speaks to her mum everyday on the phone and tells her most things). They would be FURIOUS with me.....

How worrying. Definately abusive from what you say. It really seems like the girl needs someone looking out for her and monitoring the situation closely. But very hard to get involved to a great extent in their soon to be marriage. How do you feel she will manage with a newborn? She may need some kind of support from HC professionals. Do you think his family are likely to get very involved if there is a baby?

What a difficult situation