Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This board is the most frightening .

582 replies

fangbanger · 25/02/2011 23:25

Apparently.

I am a little saddened that a forum mostly used by women, has decided that the feminist boards are the most frightening of the forum.

Why do we feel that is? What can be done to prevent people from feeling so intimidated that they are too scared t post?

OP posts:
JaneS · 26/02/2011 12:15

JoeyBettany said it last on this thread, but people often say that they don't want to post here because they're not academics, or because they've not read up on feminism. Would it be a very silly idea for us to do a poll on regulars and work out what we do all know/do? It's particularly the 'academic' 'educated' terminology that's bothering me.

Although I do think you are all very clever and it sounds as if quite a few of you are feminist academics, the same is true about clever people and academics across MN, isn't it? There are loads of people who I know must be in proper academia because the advise students like me - and unless they're namechanging and I'm exceptionally thick, I don't see some of them over here often.

I'm not a feminist academic and I've not read any feminist criticism. In my day job I'm a student. I know dittany sometimes says explicitly that she's not into academic feminism. But the label persists and if it's putting people off, maybe putting our cards on the table could help?

PeterAndreForPM · 26/02/2011 12:22

"practical" feminism anyone ?

the stuff that relates to how we live our life from day to day

the little things

The "big things" are often very scary and require a lot of background knowledge to construct a useful argument

however, we all know that lots of little injustices and damaging attitudes add up to the whole don't we

I am a practical feminist, I think. What I see, I react to, I know I am clever about that

PeterAndreForPM · 26/02/2011 12:22

clever enough I should add

JaneS · 26/02/2011 12:29

I think I am too, Peter. I think quite a lot of us are. It's one of the reasons I find it strange that this board seems to have a reputation for very heavy academic stuff. I don't venture into the book club for a reason, but other than that I tend to think the things on this topic that are challenging to think about aren't challenging because we're a bunch of elitists who talk in academic jargon, it's because they're genuinely hard ideas that come from real life.

I mean, you don't have to have read up on feminist theory to think about issues to do with women at work, or childcare - it probably makes it interesting if you have, but the debate isn't exclusive to people who're well-read, I think. The ideas are hard to think about because they're referring to a hard practical situation, not because they require three PhDs before you can see how it relates to your real life. Imo.

Hullygully · 26/02/2011 12:30

Peter - come to the fem-lite thread

PeterAndreForPM · 26/02/2011 12:33

gimme chance hulls, I just got up

PeterAndreForPM · 26/02/2011 12:34

I have sausage butties waiting

Hullygully · 26/02/2011 12:38

Ooo missus..

dittany · 26/02/2011 14:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

alexpolismum · 26/02/2011 14:37

Tell it like it is, and don't pull your punches, dittany. I certainly appreciate it, and have learnt a lot from you.

People should stop taking offence at and feeling bullied by words on a screen from people they have never met. If they read the replies to their posts properly, they would see that in the main they are not personal attacks, but analysis of and disagreement with their opinions and beliefs.

I lurk a lot more than I actually post, but can I just say to all you fellow lurkers who are afraid to post as you feel you don't know enough - you don't need to know a lot about feminism in order to have an opinion or to feel that there is something wrong. You don't need to be an academic. Just articulate as you see fit. Even if it's only to say "I agree with SoAndSo, she's hit the nail on the head."

tethersend · 26/02/2011 15:33

Well said, dittany.

Sausage butty?

dittany · 26/02/2011 15:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tethersend · 26/02/2011 15:41
Smile
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 26/02/2011 17:21

I'd like to see more posters on the feminism board too. I can understand why some are put off from posting though.

I tend to stick to the Relationships board mainly, because that is my area of interest and I've only generally got the time to post on one board. When the Feminist board was set up, I was itching to post, but knew that I'd spend even more time that I didn't have. I lurked frequently however.

What I found though, was that the daily negative effects of sexism were showing up every day on the Relationships board, on thread after thread. Porn and prostitute use, women having unequal workloads and less leisure time, infidelity (which is steeped in gender politics), rape, coercion, bargains about "men will be men", gendered myths about women's right to enjoy sex and the whole notion that men and women are inherently different, rather than my belief that we are a species that has been conditioned differently and it is the social constructs that cause so many problems, not our basic humanity or gender.

So I tend to post from a feminist perspective on that board and lurk here to learn more, posting only if I have the time and the other board is a bit quiet.

I understand why regulars on this board don't see the need to moderate their tone and agree that women are conditioned to use passive language, rather than direct speech. However, on all the talk boards I think debate and conversation is more interesting if, as in a normal face-to-face conversation, there is dialogue that acknowledges points of agreement as well as dispute. This stops threads being derailed by arguments and people taking entrenched positions because they feel attacked.

I often roll my eyes for example when I see post after post stating that "feminism is all about women's choices" but I'd rather explain why I disagree with that viewpoint and say why I think that women's choices often actively harm women and feminism generally.

As a general observation, I have sometimes felt that there are a few taboos on the feminism boards that would be interesting to discuss. Broadly speaking, they come under the banner of women taking responsibility for our own choices and re-framing them as decisions that have consequences, rather than us acting like victims with no choices or decisions to make.

It sometimes feels like the elephant in the room in Feminist discussions, with what seems like a huge reluctance to criticise a financially independent woman's choice to be a porn star, lap dancer or prostitute, for example. Treating women as victims, when they have made active choices that harm other women, feels patronising and anti-feminist to me.

I don't think we should have a blind-spot about what is at times, pretty lousy female behaviour - nor should we be more shocked or angry when women behave as badly or worse than men. Just as I detest women being expected to have higher standards of behaviour than men, I get irritated if there is not even an acknowledgement that the behaviour has happened, was an active choice and is blameworthy.

I think it also helps women to analyse the choices we are making and how these either harm us, or others. For example, I often see threads from women in relationships with lazy, selfish or emotionally detached men and their response is to enact some power by not having sex, a choice that is encouraged by others.

My approach is to unpick that a bit more and establish whether the resentment in the relationship is being addressed indirectly and passively via sex, rather than head-on via a conversation and possibly a more open choice to leave the relationship or pursue an open relationship with someone with whom she actually wants sex. Denying a sexual woman a sex life always seems to me such a self-defeating and indirect way of enacting power in a relationship, but it often seems to be assumed by posters on here that it is normal for women not to want sex.

When I first started posting on Mumsnet, I also used to see a lot of infidelity threads where OW were victimised by posters, as being blameless and simply victims of men, despite their own active choices to get involved in a relationship that was going to cause another woman and children pain. I'm so glad not to see that so much any more, just as I am glad that OW don't tend to get blamed more by objective posters, than the unfaithful men involved.

In summary, I'm always delighted to see the regular posters on the Feminsist board out in force on the "practical" threads in Relationships and I'd love to see more posters from other boards posting in this section too.

HerBeX · 26/02/2011 19:05

I don't think you'll find that POV - that sex being used as a negotiation tool is a Good Thing - being heavily promoted in the feminist section WWIFN.

There was a thread recently about the gatekeeper role, it was interesting.

There is an acknowledgement that at certain times of your life you want more sex than at others and also that the way you are treated within your relationship will affect your desire for sex with the person with whom you are having that relationship. Which is fair enough I think.

Tortington · 26/02/2011 19:07

i have come on here and stated that i am not a feminist and i have also put forward other ideological explainations. i can certainly say that i have felt rounded on - of course though , i don't scare easily - but you can be a militant lot who are not open to other POVs being heard.

or even accepting that women are not feminists because they are...women.

HerBeX · 26/02/2011 19:10

With regard to this thing of feminists should be educating/ empowering/ showing the way to other women, I think that's bound up with this idea that women are supposed to be providing a service for free in whatever they do in life. I caught the tail end of a radio phone in this week about ice cream made of breast-milk and they interviewed the mothers who were selling their milk for it and the makers of the ice-cream and of course you got wankers phoning in saying that it was outrageous that these women were selling their breastmilk as they ought to be donating it to baby units for free.

The assumption behind that, is that women really don't have the right to do anything for themselves, which could be done for others. And I think this thing of us discussing, combatting (verbally) learning, digesting, chewing the fat with each other for our own pleasure and our own education, rather than for the edification of others, is all tied in with that very deep-seated attitude, that we are here to serve and that any benefit we get, should only be got after all the work of the world is done.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 26/02/2011 19:26

HerBex you and I were on that same thread and I agree it was interesting, but on that same thread there seemed to be a more prevalent view that it was perfectly understandable for women not to want a sexual relationship and also to joke with their women friends about not wanting sex or performing that gatekeeper role.

On the Relationships threads, I have lost count of the women who are advised to stop having sex if they are being treated badly by their partners - and berated for still having sex, even if they want to. I think the notion that women might still want sex and can disassociate it from other negative aspects of the relationship, is seen as an anathema and one that should be discouraged.

I agree completely that in a relationship, there will be times when sex is not a primary driver and that libido waxes and wanes for most people. I applauded your point on that thread too, that men suffer from the lazy stereotype that their libido is always sky high, when the Relationships boards tell a very different story.....

LadyBiscuit · 26/02/2011 19:26

WWIFN - that's a really great post and very interesting re withholding sex.

I've noticed a bit of a sea-change since I've been on MN on the relationship threads - there was a fair bit of acceptance of really emotionally abusive behaviour a few years back which now doesn't happen. And I think you're a large factor in that. What's great about your posts is that you don't just write 'leave him, he's a cocklodger' but that you allow the OP to come to that conclusion through questioning and fairly gentle challenge.

I think you probably do more than a lot of us that hang out in feminism in challenging some of the accepted norms because of that.

Sorry, that is all horribly sycophantic but I am always impressed by the amount of time you give women who I just want to shout at.

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 26/02/2011 19:29

Thank you LB. You have really made my day. That was a lovely post to read.

HerBeX · 26/02/2011 19:30

Yes I second that LB, your posts are always really thoughtful and patient WWIBN. [Kiss-arse emoticon] Grin

dittany · 26/02/2011 19:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HerBeX · 26/02/2011 19:31

Have just had an excellent idea for a new emoticon - a brown bottom - shall I suggest it to MNHQ? Grin

PeterAndreForPM · 26/02/2011 19:32

seconds LadyB

I also love it when the feminist board posters come over to the Relationships board

they are always spot on

I hang on their every word < sucks up >

PeterAndreForPM · 26/02/2011 19:33

how about a "brown nose"

that might be more appropriate Grin

Swipe left for the next trending thread