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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

I asked the dcs tonight what's more important

27 replies

ThePosieParker · 15/02/2011 20:04

.....being kind, clever or kind.
Ds1 said kind
Ds2 said kind
Dd said pretty......oh dear.

I hope I'm not responsible for that. Now I do think she's lovely, but if she stays beautiful (although I'm prepared to accept I may be biased) will that always be the most important thing? Do I have any impact at all? Is a young woman destined to use it to achieve success in our society?

OP posts:

FlamingoBingo · 15/02/2011 20:06

kind, clever or kind? Do you mean 'pretty, clever or kind?'

I'm just going upstairs to ask my girls the same question!

FlamingoBingo · 15/02/2011 20:08

Woohoo! At first they said 'all three' but when I said 'if you could only be one, which do you think would be the one you would choose?' and they all (well, the three who are old enough to understand) said 'kind'! [slightly smug]

tribpot · 15/02/2011 20:08

I'm assuming you meant pretty, clever or kind.

Did you ask dd why pretty was the most important?

SardineQueen · 15/02/2011 20:15

I'd hope DD would say "clever"... Don't know what that says about me

No idea what she would say, she's in bed.

I don't think it does any harm in our society for a girl to be pretty, nor for a man to be handsome, in fact I think it probably makes life a lot easier.

Some people who are really properly beautiful get a shitty time though.

I also think it's unlikely that message had come from you, I'm sure most little girls want to be pretty don't they?

I don't think that women who are pretty will automatically use it, and I think that many women who are not conventionally pretty do use their femaleness IYSWIM.

So, um.

Bottom line is it's best to be pretty (but not too pretty), clever and kind, but channel Xenia-style self-confidence and ambition when you need to?

Sorry stream of consciousness there

Portofino · 15/02/2011 20:21

Depends how old they are. I asked dd and she said "kind" but she is 6. We have put lots of effort in to teaching her to have good manners, and she IS a kind and generous girl. On the other hand, she would have NO idea of the implications that we as adults put on "pretty" or "clever".

To a six yo, ALL of these things would be good. It is hard to differentiate between them ifywim. And you can be ALL of these things, or none of them...

Original poster

ThePosieParker · 15/02/2011 20:37

Yes pretty......bugger.

OP posts:

Original poster

ThePosieParker · 16/02/2011 07:24

I'm sorry to have started a thread and then had to leave it as dd has got a cough that is making her sick. Anyway, my dd aside...

I'm wondering how one helps their children have the right priorities. Whether I was pretty is debatable, I certainly thought I was, and as it was something (like singing) I could do without any work of effort it became the one thing I wwas good at! It became important to me, and therefore I wonder whether it was that that made me so compliant to the good looking arses boys at college....I wanted them all to fancy me, not respect me, not to do the best I could at my A'levels etc.

Perhaps this is the issue, that I need to encourage my dds self esteem to be reliant on her work ethic? Friendships? etc.

OP posts:

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 16/02/2011 08:37

I think all you can do is a) not come out with too much stuff about her appearance (positive or negative) and b) take a real interest in her future and always let her know you believe she can be prime minister or a doctor or a dancer or whatever she sets her mind on.

Original poster

ThePosieParker · 16/02/2011 09:24

I do but feel it's a bit contrived it has to be more subtle.

OP posts:

Unrulysun · 16/02/2011 09:27

I also think you should be careful with 'you can be a doctor or prime minister etc' though. I'm not advocating low aspirations but I do think that needing to gain parental approval for success makes a lot of women very unhappy even when they are manifestly overachieving.

I have a friend like this - the marathon she ran was 'too slow', working till 9 pm at night is 'just about keeping up' :( I do see a lot of evidence that, for girls, this results in eating disorders too :(

Original poster

ThePosieParker · 16/02/2011 09:31

Great point U.

OP posts:

Portofino · 16/02/2011 19:26

I am very hot on education. Not that dd must be brilliant, but that it is important that she applies herself and does as well as she can. I was quite bright when younger, but lazy as hell. Because I never HAD to make lots of effort I never did. And still don't .

Belgian schools seem to be very strict. She seems to be thriving in that environment so I am happy - though we have a long way to go. At the moment she wants to be a pop star.

I grew up being told that I was never good enough, and that I was a disappointment. It has given me life-long esteem issues, and I have made bad choices in the past because of that. I am determined that I will NEVER to that to dd. I want her to grow up to have self esteem, self respect and to understand that education and effort opens up more opportunities.

She is 6 but already sees her future as marrying her "amoureux" and having kids. But apparently Daddy and I will be babysitting whilst they are at work.

SardineQueen · 16/02/2011 19:39

It's all a bit of a minefield isn't it, this children lark.

I am currently worrying that DD is too compliant, and if despite all of my efforts she is already set in the acquiescent / quiet / eager to please stereotypical female mould which IMO is very handy for adults but not so handy as a long term life skill.

SardineQueen · 16/02/2011 19:40

But then DH points out that while she tends to be compliant with me she treats him as rather a soft touch

It's all so hard to know what to do for the best.

nooka · 17/02/2011 07:08

I think that your choices are a bit apples and oranges. Being pretty or clever are things that in general you just are, whereas being kind is something that (many/most) of us have to work at. I wonder if you asked them which is better being kind, working hard or looking good if they would give you different answers?

It might be the responses are to do with the compliments/praise your children have received or heard other children receiving, in which case I'm not surprised that your dd chose being pretty, as it's a frequent comment towards girls, but very rarely given to boys.

I wonder what my two would say - I doubt ds would go for pretty or kind (he struggles!) so I guess he'd say clever. I doubt dd would say pretty because I think she is old enough to know I wouldn't approve!

gorionine · 17/02/2011 07:16

I just asked my 4 and was absolutely not surprised by their answer

DD1 (11 1/2) : a balance between kind and clever

DS2 (10) :clever

DS3 (6 1/2) :clever

DD4 (4) :pretty

I am quite sure if I had asked the same question to DD1 when she was DD4's age, I would also have got "pretty" for thevery reason nooka already mentioned.

exoticfruits · 17/02/2011 07:20

If you ask a young child a question, you get a young child's answer. It is nothing to worry about, they will have a different one as they get older. One who says 'pretty' is caught up in fairy tales and princesses-nothing more needs to be read into it.

Alouiseg · 17/02/2011 07:32

I don't have daughters but if I did I would make sure that I told them they were beautiful, for their own self esteem.

My mother never complimented me on my appearance because she wanted my focus to be on higher things.

In retrospect it was damaging because I "knew" I was pretty but it wasn't mentioned within my family but I was complimented every where else. It lead to me upping the ante, I became obsessed with make up and hair and clothes but the clothes became more obvious, the skirts shorter and generally led to a "sluttier" look. that was because I wanted the compliments and the reassurance. If My Mum had complimented me when I was in my jeans or fresh faced from the bath or wearing a "nice" outfit I would never have sought so much approval from everyone else.

It's a very tricky thing to get right but I have no hesitation in telling my boys how handsome they look.

nooka · 17/02/2011 07:40

Oh I'm not advocating not telling your children they are wonderful (although I was reading the other day that too much of that is actually very bad for their self esteem). And my dd is really quite pretty, I just bet that if you say followed a typical young boy and young girl with a secret camera you'd find that 'pretty' gets said an awful lot to the girl (assuming no major disfigurement) and never to the boy (this is probably less pronounced for babies). So not surprising for a little girl to pick up as important.

exoticfruits · 17/02/2011 07:41

I think that any fairy story would pick it out as important! That is the stage they are at and they move on.

AgeingGrace · 17/02/2011 12:00

I was taught that I was ugly, stupid and kind :(
So it's important to me that all children believe themselves to be gorgeous and clever/competent. Kindness is a virtue but not fundamental to healthy self-worth.

SardineQueen · 17/02/2011 13:31

nooka - too much bolstering of self-esteem is bad now?

Unrulysun · 17/02/2011 13:45

I think research says that meaningless compliments are worthless. If everthing is brilliant kids see through it. I just have to get up in the morning for my mum to think I'm great so compliments from her aren't worth as much (love her absolutely most of all though :) ) I think you're supposed to go for something specific 'i love the way you've drawn the sky, it's really summery and makes me feel happy' rather than the general 'what an amazing painting'. I think the unconditional parenting lot would have more on this.

Complimenting a child for something they can't change (intelligence, beauty) is a potentially dodgy route IMO. Although beauty is so subjective I intend to tell my children they're gorgeous because whoever saw a child that wasn't?

darleneconnor · 17/02/2011 15:55

It's no surprise, really. They see the media rewarding pretty girls but not kind or clever ones.

nooka · 18/02/2011 03:55

It's telling your children they are clever that is apparently a bad idea, because when they hit difficulties they seem to lack fortitude and are scared to fail. When they do fail they think they aren't smart at all but failures. Much better to praise effort because the child thinks they can control their achievements.

I thought this was interesting, and watching my quite smart and very hard working dd outshine her very bright but unmotivated brother it seems to make sense. Although ds is complicated as he is both clever and also has some SEN. so his fear of failure/lack of motivation might come from his experiences of failure too. But then the research comes from the States where they really go very overboard on the positive self-esteem stuff.

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