Bidisha article on pubic hair removal

[JessinAvalon]

Good Bidisha article on pubic hair removal:

m.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/11/womens-pubic-hair-removal-porn?cat=lifeandstyle&type=article

sakura I accept they are linked. But is dangerous to treat them as one and the same because they are not and it over simplifies the issue.

Porn influences some fashion.

Fashion influences some porn.

But not everything done in the name of fashion is pornification and it is, in my opinion lazy and alienating to suggest otherwise.

For example we appear to accept that leg depilation is done for fashion. But we don't claim "pornification". Yet pubic depilation, despite the fact that it has several additional and perhaps more significant benefits than fashion alone is written off as "pornification".

Why? Sometimes it appears that the primary reason is simply womans genitals = pornography and that association without question troubles me far more greatly than whether the genitals in question are hair covered or hairless....

Anyway it is an interesting debate but I think I am done with being a lone flag flyer for pubic depilation on the feminist boards so off to bed. Night

It's not dangerous at all to say that fashion, especially the shaving of pubes, has been heavily influenced by porn.
WHat is dangerous is to claim there is no link, as you have done, or to say that women are the active agents of free choice when they get rid of their pubes. They're not, they've been influenced by an array of clever marketing tactics.

I also think it's very disingenuous of you to imply that feminists are saying women's genitals= pornography , when we're actually saying the opposite . We live in a culture where it's legal to advertise labioplasty to "tidy up" women's genitals, the way that they're tidied up in porn- either by labioplasty or through photoshopping . But if you're worried about women's genitals being linked to pornography then become an anti-porn activist because as long as porn is around women's genitals will be linked to it.

I really don't get the 'but it's a choice and it's wrong to suggest that intelligent women are not making a free choice if they say it is' argument.

Every human being makes every choice in relation to culture. This applies to every choice. And I can't see hair removal as the exception to this.

We can have more or less choice/agency in a situation and more or less culture/structure is a situation. But to think that any decision by any human being is made entirely devoid of external influences makes no sense.

It's nothing to do with intelligence. Or suggesting that people are mindless pawns.

"not everything done in the name of fashion is pornification and it is, in my opinion lazy and alienating to suggest otherwise."

No one has suggested that everything done in the name of fashion is pornification, where have you got that impression from?

Just that some things are: there are certain trends around now, which were not around 30 years ago, which are directly or indirectly linked to the porn industry.

They include pube topiary, very very high heels, breast and buttock surgery, mini mini mini skirts, basques, etc.

These looks all started in porn. They made their way into the mainstream along with porn, much of which has become widespread and mainstream.

Other fashions of course have nothing to do with porn, no one has suggested that all fashion comes from porn, just some of the recent ones.

A lot women will happily express the view that they find back hair on men disgusting and feel very strongly that it should be removed. This of course is another perfectly normal secondary sexual characteristic in many men, so shouldn't really provoke any strong reactions. Also, women seem to care far more about it than men.

Is this also linked to porn use? Or is society just requiring more hair to be removed by everyone (separating us from our animal ancestors perhaps!)?

wild guess but I reckon there's probably a bit of racism thrown in too. Anglo-Saxon whites don't tend to have back hair, or even very much chest hair whereas men from Southern Europe and the Middle East have quite a lot.

The pressure on women to get rid of their pubes is just absolutely everywhere. Every time you walk past La Senza, or watch a TV programme with bikinis clad women in it (CSI!) or walk through Boots you are absorbing the message of what an acceptable bikini line should look like. The message is: the less hair a woman has down there, the better.
And I can't think of any public places or spaces that celebrate pubic hair as being wonderful, can you? (Not that I think there needs to be, but if there were you can bet that more women would then "choose" not to get rid of it) IN fact, people think it's disgusting if a woman's pubes are sticking out of her cozzie. So it's not a "choice" if she then shaves them off is it..

At 13, I had never been to a fashionable beach.

At 13, I knew full well that my mother did nothing with her pubic or underarm hair, as was her preference.

At 13, I had never seen a naked woman apart from my mother.

At 13, the closest to sex i had approached was kissing with tongues.

At 13 I didn't know there was such a thing as porn.

At 13, I refused to use tampons.

At 13, I refused to wear shorts or skirts.

At 13, I lived in tight jeans (which had been rather looser jeans a year earlier) which made me hot and sweaty in the summer.

At 13, I shaved off my pubic hair to see if it made me more comfortable in the heat.

It did. It also made my horribly heavy, clotridden periods easier to deal with in a house that didn't have a shower.

What the fuck has that got to do with either fashion or porn?

I am not a bubble headed imbecile, I am an independant minded woman - and yet still, the only people who tell me what I should feel, or that the reasons I do things aren't the real reasons, are the posters on the feminist board.

It is arrogant to presume to know everything a person's decisions are based on, and that they cannot possibly know themselves.

I am fed up of having my experiences as a young woman ignored, because silly girls cannot possibly know the reasons thy do things, it simply must be because of men and porn and sex.

Bollocks to it. It's a misogynistic message - that I am clearly too brainwashed and down trodden to be right about my own fucking mind.

Coldtits - it's not about why you did it. It's about why lots more women are doing it now that used to do it.

because they can

because women's razors are available

because it's a control thing - you don't have to put up with it if you don't bloody want to.

This reminds me of the hippy movement bullying women into not accepting pain relief in labour, because labour shouldn't hurt, it's all natural etc.

Why don't you try asking each one of the individual women who shave off their pubes instead of guessing?

In my experience here, everyone who dissents will be ignored, glossed over, or told "Ahhh, well that's just you..." (with the implication that I am abnormal for dissenting)

Great post coldtits. I'm with you.

It's of no consequence to me if you shave your minge or not. Personally I like to keep mine neat and tidy, but with hair. I have not met one man in my laugh who would refuse a woman because she had a bush down there. Do these men really exist?

And whilst we don't shave our heads we do style the hair on out heads to look better don't we?

Great some other ideas. Down thread there were some other ideas suggested, one of which was about women feeling that they were able to touch parts of their body that they weren't allowed to before. I have been thinking that idea over since it was mentioned. I'm really interested in other ideas. At the moment pornification convinces me the most, but it would be great to be able to have discussion about other ideas. What do you think about that idea?

I don't believe though that asking individual people about their reasons would make for the best approach to researching this though. For a start it wouldn't be possible to ask enough people for it to start giving an indication of trend, and for a second there are so many more things to consider than individual perception. In research I do, I do ask people for their individual perception, and then look at documents that are also produced about what they are telling me, then look at the wider context of how this subject fits with others. It would not stand up as a research project if I just asked even 100 people and then said that that is just fact. Some further analysis has to be applied to make contextualised sense of things.

Just asking people places too much emphasis on agency and not enough on structure. In my field, in the 60s/70s there was a shift towards this approach in response to it being too lacking in human experience. There was then a later shift to bring more recognition of structure back in.

20 years ago, the majority of women did not shave but now, apparently, the majority of women do shave. That is a very significant change in behaviour. It could be a very dramatic example of free choice by disconnected women doing it independently. However, I think that is unlikely. I can't think of any other examples of such massive spontaneous changes in practice not linked to wider cultural pressures.

Any political philosophy, including feminism, tries to draw conclusions from society-wide trends. Governments and the law generalise all the time. It is unfair to hold feminism to a higher standard than the rest of society.

Generalisations may or may not match the experience or choice of individual women. Trying to draw generalisations and finding that they don't agree with one woman's individual circumstances is not the same as denying that individual woman did not choose of her own free will. That generalisation process isn't going to draw the right conclusions every time, but I think it is a legitimate process.

coldtits wrote - "because women's razors are available"

Women in other cultures have been shaving for centuries, long before women's razors came along.

Is it the majority now? I'm not sure it is. Tidying, trimming and bikini line is more common now I would guess

I never used to mention my shaving to anyone, it was just personal grooming to me. Now people aren't scared to talk about it and tell others. So is the difference that now people discuss it?? Now salons are offering the service it is more spoken about. Women are still squeamish about their bodies

I agree that more people are now not scared of getting to know their bodies, if you trim or shave - you have to have had a look at your pubic area, vulva and anus. There was a thread not long ago with someone wanting to know where their urethra opening was!!?? Many woman had never looked at their pubic area - I found that to be very sad and alarming

Would it not have been that 20 years ago women's sexuality/interest in things related to sex were often ignored or unexpected. Over the past few years would it not be fair to say women have taken much greater interest and are more explorative on things that they like?

I think governments make generalisations because they often make nationwide reviews/studies in order to have reference for their claims. Has there been one to find out the general reasons for why women shave/trim/wax their pubic hair, there was a thread which showed that many women have varying reasons.

Porn likewise is not exempt from the popular culture who's to say the popular fashion/choices didn't influence porn. Porn from years ago showed people with lots of pubic hair, in fact there was lots of hair everywhere. Normal T.V shows from 70/80s etc showed men with hairy chests that was the 'in' look now however men feel the need to wax their chests (depends on race though some races don't grow much hair). You will find that many young men now trim their pubic hair.

scaredoflove - "Now salons are offering the service"

It sounds like a chicken and egg situation. More women do it because salons offer. Salons offer because women do it.

On this thread, I think we are simply examining which came first and why.

I do think we have become way more open and interested than 20 years ago. I am not denying anything just pointing out that there can be multiple reasons for doing the same thing and that it is a bit unreasonable to lay the blame on one sole thing as well as saying anyone that anyone that does so for another reason is just an individual especially since at least to my knowledge there hasn't been a major study/questionnaire etc asking what they feel influenced them. Yes people can be influenced by porn, but it's difficult to say its the only reason.

People have shaved places where there is likely to be hair on show (chests,legs,armpits) I suppose now that it is more common for people to dress in ways where pubic hair can easily be seen (swim wear, beaches, night out etc) it has become part of the grooming category.

Coldtits why are you so angry about the fact that we are trying to discuss women's grooming choices in the context of the culture in which they live? Nobody has called you or anyone else a "bubble headed imbecile" because they trim their pubes. Any more than we would call Elizabeth I and the ladies of her court, bubble headed imbeciles for shaving their foreheads. That was their individual choice, I wonder why we don't make the individual choice to do that?

But saltatrix no one is saying that it's solely a question of individuals being influenced by porn.

We are syaing tht porn has influenced various bits of culture - music videos, film, fashion, art etc. - and they influence culture. It's not direct.

That's what I am saying I don't think it is a one way thing, the people invovled in pornography are not exempt from culture their surroundings will influence them as well. I would say that pornography can take something from society and exaggerate it a bit like how movies do the same thing.

I'm angry because i don't feel I am being heard.

I'm angry because the reasons for the choices I make are being denied.

Coldtits the reasons you have for your decision are not being denied.

The discussion just keeps coming back to the broader trend of why lots of women are doing something different to what lots of women used to do. Because this is more interesting to undertaking a feminist analysis of a phenomenon such as pubic hair removal.

It's not about you and your decision.

I don't know how I can express that any differently, but I really don't get why you think this is related to you personally, and I hate to think that it feels this way for you.

I was thinking of another analogy. The majority of women wear white(ish) when they get married. That is a social trend linked to all sorts of stuff that doesn't matter here, but I'm sure most people recognise it is a trend. I don't think women think they have gone through all the colour charts and come up with white individually without the cultural influences. However there might be some women who wear white because it suits them best, it is a special colour as their first teddy was white, their partner gave them a white rose on their first date. Or something. Hopefully you get the idea. But even with their experiences and their reasons, I would have through that the reason most people wear white(ish) when they get married is due to broader cultural trends. It's an individual decision, it doesn't make them an idiot but it is rooted in something bigger than just them. Except for the exceptions, but they aren't the answer to the interesting trend.

Exactly, the exceptions would have worn white/ shaved their pubes/ shaved their foreheads anyway. (Actually, perhaps not shaved their foreheads, that does now sound like a bit of a berserk thing to do outside an Elizabethan court.) It's the general trend that's interesting.

I'm interested in why 14 year old girls are now feeling the need to shave their pubic hair off and why boys are growing up with the expectation that girls don't have pubic hair. I accept that of course there may be some girls who choose to do this because it feels more comfortable but I'm writing in England not Australia (where my brother lives) where the heat isn't exactly a big problem for us (unfortunately).

The girls on the Sex Ed show last year said that they were removing their pubic hair because it was seen as gross to have it and the boys said that they found pubic hair repellent.

We could potentially have a whole generation growing up now with the expectation that women's pubic hair is undesirable.

The boys themselves directly linked this to porn. The girls linked their "choice" to boys' expectations.

As others have said, there will always be exceptions who do it because they want to/feel more comfortable/etc. But I too am more interested in the general trend and why this is happening. This doesn't mean that I am denying the choices that individual women have made of their own free will but I am interested in why 14 year girls are now getting themselves waxed before they're even sexually active in a country where it's only hot for about 3 months of the year.