Bidisha article on pubic hair removal

[JessinAvalon]

Good Bidisha article on pubic hair removal:

m.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/11/womens-pubic-hair-removal-porn?cat=lifeandstyle&type=article

coldtits I am clearly also doing feminism wrong....although that may or may not be better than doing oral sex wrong ho hum....

Interestingly (or not) total hair removal is also advocated and widely practised in many countries where pornography is illegal or at least severely frowned upon.

You're right, and it's really interesting to also make sense of other cultural experiences. I don't believe the other cultures I know of that practice hair removal are influential enough in the west for that to be the reason for the cultural change here (speaking from the UK). But yes important not to be western centric.

vesuvia That's a good point although TBH why does this really matter? I think I would only take issue with this if women felt under pressure to shave rather than as their free choice to do so?

Chances are i'll get bored with the maintenance required in a few months and go back to my trimmed habits instead...but for now its fine. Saying that- if people prefer it aesthetically then IMO its as much of a fashion as straightened hair!

NancyDrewHadaClue wrote - "total hair removal is also advocated and widely practised in many countries where pornography is illegal or at least severely frowned upon."

For example, the Middle East.

It's been ignored in western societies for centuries until the last few years.

I suppose one's view depends on whether one believes its migration to western societies was caused by the rise of internet porn, or that it is just a coincidence.

I wonder what the prevalence of total hair removal is in Spain now, considering it used to be an arab region which became western?

jinxediam - "why does this really matter? I think I would only take issue with this if women felt under pressure to shave rather than as their free choice to do so?"

I believe the pornification of our society is putting women under pressure to do this and other things.

Look back and ask your mother (if you have that kind of relationship) if she felt compelled to shave off all her pussy hair?..I feel women are actually pressured into getting a pum pum hair do..be it brazil or otherwise...but why?..fashion?..control?.both?..one disguised as the other?...a woman should not feel she is deeply affected/badly groomed by the fact she has minge hair...

at the thought of asking my mother about pubic hair.

Loved this article. My mum was the one who sent me a link to it .

I find the whole issue utterly depressing, to be honest. I agree with vesuvia re: the 'pornification' of our society. It is extreme and it is everywhere. I am always shocked when other women don't recognise it.

"I believe the pornification of our society is putting woman under pressure"

vesuvia I find it interesting that when these threads arise, which at the moment is frequently, not one of the many, many woman that do depilate cite feeling under any sort of pressure as the reason for their choice. And I believe that, without exception, every woman is specific that it is a choice.

Instead I have seen many eloquently expressed, entirely logical, rationales for hair removal. Almost without exception such arguments are dismissed as naive and uneducated, lacking in understanding and often simply plain wrong.

Intelligent, confident woman who make a relatively insignificant choice (I certainly have not come across any woman who, for example feels "deeply affected by her minge hair") are dismissed as foolish woman who are failing to recognise that their decision is part of a broader political and cultural framework and I don't believe this is necessarily true.

Personally, I am not dismissing anyone for the choices they make.

But our choices are affected by societal pressures. Of course they are. Surely you can see that? Every choice we make is affected or informed by something. And I strongly suspect that the constant messages we receive telling us that young, pert, hairless bodies = attractive (to men) play a big part in many women making the choice to remove their body hair.

But it is simply wrong to say that pubic hair is unhygienic.

It's no more unhygienic than head hair and we don't shave that off.

In fact, it's possibly less hygienic not to have minge hair - it collects bacteria and stops it going into your fanny. Waxing and shaving can be quite hard on your skin in that area and can cause tiny abrasions that let in bacteria. It's potentially extremely unhygienic to whip it off.

It is indeed a complete myth that removing pubic hair is more 'hygienic'. Pubic hair serves several functions, one of which is similar to that of eyelashes/eyebrows, i.e. to protect parts of the body vulnerable to infection from dust/dirt/bacteria.

I agree you can shave off your minge hair at will your choice..but god forbid you let it sprout and curl...obviously you don't take care of yourself in some eyes..

Tical of course I understand that our choices are affected by societal pressures but why this rigid refusal amongst many feminists to accept that perhaps those societal pressures include:

1. Fashion - desire to look good on the beach.

1. A desire to be clean and fresh as distinct from actually being hygenic (see below)

1. An increased personal enjoyment of sex.

I understand the arguments that pubic hair serves the purpose of keeping bacteria out but the fact remains that for many woman it feels far cleaner and fresher to have little or no pubic hair.

mumcentre in whose eyes? I don't think I have come across that view on MN.

Have you come across that view in real life?

But why does it 'feel cleaner and fresher'? I honestly don't understand. It seems tied up with that deep-down feeling that women aren't clean and fresh 'down there'. Pubic hair isn't dirty.

Fashion thing - So now I'm unfashionable if I don't want to remove my pubic hair? I think that's misogynistic in the extreme, I'm afraid. Pubic hair shouldn't be a fashion issue! But it is. That alone says it all

The better sex thing I'll accept. I don't personally agree, but I accept that others feel this way.

Yes Nancy on other sites and in RL some women feel the same as shaving legs or armpits...facts are hair grows there!..it does not make you an unhygienic person to have body hair..look at the press..an actress had hairy pits and all hell broke loose!!you think this does not have an impact?

Ok I am going to try and explain this as best I can

I get very heavy periods. For the first couple of days it is uncomfortable to use tampons. So bleeding onto sanitary towels means blood in your pubic hair which I find unpleasant. It is messy and TBH I find menstrual blood can be a bit smelly.

It's not that pubic hair is dirty per se, it is that pubic hair can and does get dirty and there is nothing wrong with disliking that.

I did not say that you (or anyone else) is unfashionable for choosing not to depilate. But it is a fashion issue for some. I spend a lot of time by the pool I don't want my pubic hair hanging out my bikini bottoms, anymore than I want to walk about with hairy legs.

I can appreciate the argument that all grooming is misogynistic (I don't however agree) but why do we differentiate between the removal of different sorts of body hair. Can deplitating pubic hair not just be misognisitc in the same way shaving under your arms is rather than due to "pornification".

Nancy I think the difference with all other body hair, is that you see it. Only your sexual partner sees your pubes.

As an aside, have you considered a mooncup? I fucking hate tampons, can't wear them, but mooncup is fine.

Unless you are sitting in a swimming costume on the beach - in which depending on how hirsute one is they might be viewed by the friend sitting next to you or the lifeguard on the other side of the pool - which was the point I was trying to make re fashion.

And I can offer no rational explanation but the idea of a mooncup just makes me shudder! I don't even like the idea of non applicator tampons...

This "fashion" is also related to the fashion for smaller and smaller bikinis and swimming costumes necessitating the removal of more and more body hair for women.

I do find it interesting that you'll get a man on the beach wearing trunks/shorts/speedos (hopefully not though) and they could have thick black hair on the top of their legs that just merges into their leg hair.

Yet if a woman had that, which most of us would if we didn't take the trouble to remove it, it would be seen as repulsive.

I do wonder where that trend came from. I mean, who did it occur to first that women having body hair is disgusting?

And there is pressure to remove visible body hair and, I believe, pressure to remove pubic hair now that comes from the beauty industry, the fashion industry, the porn industry. The overall look for women is hairfree except for tidy eyebrows and hair on the head. It has to be banished from everywhere else.

I'm as guilty as anyone else of going along with this but I do find it curious to look back and wonder how it was "decided" that women should be differentiated from men by having no body hair. Why was it not "decided" that men should remove theirs? I honestly cannot think of a single good reason why. Of course I understand the arguments for having nice smooth legs and it looking nicer apparently (although mostly we don't actually see hairy legs so we don't know how awful they look). No one says that men's hairy legs or armpits feel horrible or look repulsive.

Everytime this subject comes up we get people coming on saying that they choose to remove their pubic hair. Which is fine. But I do feel frustrated that this is already it seems yet another addition to women's beauty regime that they will feel the need to conform to because they believe that they have to do this to fit men's expectations.

Rightly or wrongly of course, and yes, we all have a choice as to whether or not we can go along with this, but I worry about girls growing up now who will just add this to their already long beauty & grooming regimes and won't want to question it. God forbid if I didn't shave my legs for a few days when I was at school. The teasing and the bullying was enough to make me want to avoid it in future by conforming.

What I find frustrating about lots of people saying, "but I choose to do this" is that they are saying that they like doing this and that's what's important. What to me is important is that women don't feel under pressure to conform to standards on their pubic hair and that I think is what is not addressed in some of the individual "I choose to do it" posts.

Channel 4's Sex Education Show last year interviewed school boys who said that they didn't expect girls to have pubic hair. And girls of 14 admitted that they were getting it all waxed off and some weren't even sexually active. I just thought that was really sad and the boys admitted that it came from porn use.

Jess all the points you make are valid and interesting.

I don't seek to argue that the desire to remove, for example leg hair, is anything other than one that society imposes for somewhat trivial reasons. I would accept the suggestion that I go along with it because I have been conditioned by society to believe this is attractive (to both men and other woman) in much the same way that I now wear my hair straight yet 15+ years ago had a perm.

The only issue that I object to is the lack of distinction between the beauty, fashion and porn industries. Just because something is done in the name of fashion, doesn't mean it has it's roots in pornography, or can be construed as "pornification" even if it's roots could be argued to be misogynisitic.

I'm not really conviced I am properly articulating my thoughts on the subject but the sweeping generalisations re "pornification" is something that troubles me in the light of real evidence that the practise exists for reasons wholly unconnected with porn.

Nancy, the fashion industry is heavily influenced by the porn industry. Designers like Alexander Mcqueen made no secret of the fact that porn underlied his fashion. Porn clips would play in the background during his shows.

There is "real" conclusive undeniable evidence that the porn and fashion industry are inextricably linked