Diamonds are a girl's best friend.. Are they???

[sakura]

I'd like to start at thread about dodgy song lyrics, because songs are everywhere: in shops, on the radio, on TV, on old films; they're the background noise to life, which gives me the sense that they might be a form of brainwashing.

"Diamonds are a girl's best friend"
[No they're not, My best friend-a funny, warm, clever woman- is my best friend]

"ah, brown sugar how come you taste so good? ah, brown sugar just like a young girl should" (Rolling Stones) [Should I? Should girls taste of brown sugar?]

And that's before you get to all the songs about women pining for men who've jilted them, and men trying to get rid of clingy women who can't take the message....

Shows again how those in power get to define current popular ideology by only allowing the worldviews that they like/support/identify with to become public. ANd then everyone belives the patriarchal definition of women, even women themselves..

I just remember being very very irritated by it at the time, because so many of my friend's boyfriends were always doing that "I don't know what I've done" crap, when in fact, she'd told them quite specifically and vociferously, what they'd done. And they called that nagging.

I can't believe 'Don't You Want Me Baby' is being mauled. WTF?!

Context. Humour. Irony. Story telling.

Are these things all lost on feminists, then?
Or is this just a joke thread? Confuzzled.

If it's serious, then this isn't feminism, it's dim-wittery, and I am going to have to hide this thread because it's embarrassing to me (as a feminist) sorry.

Probably best BoomBap

Oh don't be stupid. We know that sometimes the lyrics of songs are ironic and knowing.

The point we're making, is that the 10-18 year olds who are the target market, often don't know that. And they are surrounded by cultural messages, the earliest of which are probably pop lyrics, which are all about women being pathetic and men being important.

We're noticing it and not pretending it doesn't matter at all and doesn't have any influence at all. Of course it does. Doesn't mean you can't sing along, but let's not all see no evil hear no evil. Popular culture matters.

Oh and often, the lyrics aren't ironic at all.

Men who sing them just pretend they are when they are challenged on it.

The problem is the irony is most definitely lost on a whole host of people who really do think women are like this

If it was ironic, why didn't they swap the genders hmm..?

I am not getting the context, humour or irony of Don't you want me. Wasn't personally aware that it was supposed to be ironic? I was a teenager when it was a hit and the irony/humour and context obviously went way over my head .

The Baby Bird (Gorgeous) one I think was supposed to be ironic and I can get that because the lyrics are so horrible and therefore more obviously meant to be a parody of a model/seedy photographer relationship. Don't you want me is more insidious and it may well be ironic but it is a bit too clever at it for me!

I think he's supposed to be seen as a desperate twat Svengali type.

I got that when I was a teenager, but that's because me and my mates were all feminists and involved ourselves in the analysis, arguments about pop music etc.

Not sure if everyone got it mind.

We all loved Gregory Isaacs and reggae and had to overlook all the mysogyny there too.

Thank you HerBex! I got that he was a twat so understood part of it! Ironically though I actually had a boyfriend a bit like him - constantly on about how much he had taught me and where would I have been without him - happier that's where!

how do i breathe without you?

really never heard of lungs, circulatory system...?

because you loved me

You stood by me and I stood tall
I had your love, I had it all
I'm grateful for each day you gave me

Maybe, I don't know that much
But I know this much is true
I was blessed because
I was loved by you

just reinforcing fairytales

Cliff Richard's "Living Doll":

"Got myself a crying, talking, sleeping, walking, living doll"

and

"I'm gonna lock her up in a trunk
So no big hunk can steal her away from me".

Excuse me, sakura?

"Yes, you and Camille are absolutely right.
Women should stop blaming patriarchy and start blaming themselves. FOr example, when a woman is raped, she should stop blaming rapists and start blaming herself..Hang on, Wait a minute ...."

Where on earth did I say anything like that? What do you mean, "you and Camille?" Where did I say I agreed with Camille Paglia?

I said this thread about MUSIC reminded me of a quote by her about MUSIC, that's all. Suddenly, by posting it, you're inferring I'm a rape apologist? Bit of a leap, isn't it?

Is that just par for the course if a poster with a male name ventures onto a feminist thread on MN?

I think it's more that you seem to be requiring us to discuss Camille Paglia, BB, as if anythign she has to say at all, is worth discussing.

She's an idiot.

Sakura hasn't accused you of being a rape apologist, she has illustrated the idiocy of CP's idiotic pretend-feminism.

It sticks in the craw, but I'll allow myself to be drawn into just one criticism of CP: " I said you cannot apply a political agenda to art"

What a load of bollocks. Tell that to the socialist realists. Art is as political as anything else. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it on its own terms, but let's not pretend there's no political context at all.

No. They're only rocks. Since the whole thing is more about men buying women diamonds than women buying diamonds iyswim, I think it's rather insulting to women, actually.

ooooh, look at the shiney sparkly shiney ooooh lookie lookie... kiss me...

They're sparkly rocks. The idea that women are so shallow that you can buy them with shiney rocks is insulting.

HecateQueenOfWitches wrote - "The idea that women are so shallow that you can buy them with shiney rocks is insulting."

Indeed. It reminds me of those colonialists and explorers who patronisingly bought-off/pacified the locals with shiny coloured beads.

Another bit of a divergent link, but this thread has got me thinking about when music is brave, presume you all know the song Strange Fruit?

Anyhow the De La Soul link is powerful stuff, hip hop song, great story telling about abuse. Millie is not believed and pops her abusive father with a pistol.

The correct song title is Millie pulled a pistol on Santa.

Really powerful. I hope I am not the only person to hear of this song??

Millie tried real hard to let this hell not happen
But when she'd fuss, he would just commence to slappin'
(Yo Dillon man, Millie's been out of school for a week, man, what's the deal?)

I guess he was givin' Millie's bruises time to heal
Of course he told us she was sick and we believed him
And at the department store as Santa we would see 'em
And as he smiled, his own child was at home plottin'
How off the face of this earth she was gonna knock him

Ha yes vesuvia. The three of Marilyn Monroe's films that I've seen (Some Like it Hot, How To Marry a Millionaire, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes) all have basically the same plot, about girls determined to marry for money at any cost (although there is usually some shenanigans involving rich men in disguise as poor men, that make it All Right and Not Prostitution Exactly). Diamonds... fits right into that context.

I also agree that Camille Paglia is not really worthy of discussion, being a self-aggrandising apologist for, well, bad stuff :)

"And these feminists of the New Haven Women's Liberation Rock Band went into a rage, surrounded me, practically spat in my face, literally my back was to the wall. They're screaming in my face, "Art? Art? Nothing that demeans women can be art!" There it is. There it is! Right from the start. The fascism of the contemporary women's movement."

They "practically spat in my face" - they didn't actually spit in your face then? You mean "they were angry". How unladylike! My goodness, some women disagreed with you about a song and got annoyed about it, no swear words or physical violence or insults were thrown, but this - THIS - is comparable with fascism? Marvellous.

I think that art that demeans women can be art, in the same way that the Black and White Minstrels could perform a song really nicely and it be art. Doesn't mean I want any part in it.

Do people know the Gilbert o'Sullivan song 'Claire'?

I-phone won't let me C and P but I can link

So he's babysitting a little girl he's in love with and saying things like 'I don't care what people say, to me you're more than a child'. Yeuch yeuch yeuch.

Yeuch.

'I want to marry you. Won't you marry me Uncle Ray?'

Yeuch yeuch yeuch.

no, Belfast, DId you actually read the quote you posted?

I wasn't accusing you of being a rape apologist... I was rebuting the Camille quote that women need to stop blaming other people and start taking responsibility for their oppression.
That line of thinking doesn't work- not in the context of men making misogynistic songs, nor in the context of rape, or in the lack of political representation or.. or in any context in feminism.

WOmen are entitled to point the finger and say "You, right there, you . You have done something unacceptable"

And as I said earlier, if the art is any good it will transcend racist/misogynistic content. But AFAICS true art rarely contains that kind of content. It's usually the artless who resort to it (or are so artless they are so unaware of the political context of their art)

Enrique Igelesias - I like it.
All of which is appalling but the first verse sets the tone so you can get the drift

Girl please excuse me If I'm coming too strong
But tonight is the night We can really let go
My girlfriend is out of town And I'm all alone
Your boyfriend is on vacation And he doesn't have to know

When ever it comes on the radio I have to turn it off - as much as its offensive as because its like glue it sticks in your brain

ok so no one likes de la soul?