Diamonds are a girl's best friend.. Are they???

[sakura]

I'd like to start at thread about dodgy song lyrics, because songs are everywhere: in shops, on the radio, on TV, on old films; they're the background noise to life, which gives me the sense that they might be a form of brainwashing.

"Diamonds are a girl's best friend"
[No they're not, My best friend-a funny, warm, clever woman- is my best friend]

"ah, brown sugar how come you taste so good? ah, brown sugar just like a young girl should" (Rolling Stones) [Should I? Should girls taste of brown sugar?]

And that's before you get to all the songs about women pining for men who've jilted them, and men trying to get rid of clingy women who can't take the message....

Shows again how those in power get to define current popular ideology by only allowing the worldviews that they like/support/identify with to become public. ANd then everyone belives the patriarchal definition of women, even women themselves..

fair point seth. the op was on about the brown sugar.

op has a good point about the constant media (multimedia) drone of this type of thing. it extends way beyond song lyrics. soaps and tv adverts are even worse. particularly tv ads.

skandi what if you're a young girl who is not a rolling stones connosseur and has no idea what the brown sugar song means or represents, but all you hear is "ah, brown sugar how come you taste so good? ah, brown sugar just like a young girl should""

I'm sure there's layers of depth in "hit me baby one more time" too... but how many people care enough to dig deep to uncover them

I was reading the start of this thread and it reminded me of what Camille Paglia said about the Rolling Stones. Since then a few posters have mentioned them, specifically 'Under My Thumb', so I went and found the exact Camille Paglia quote:

"So by the time the women's movement broke forth in 1969, it was practically impossible for me to be reconciled with my "sisters." And there were, like, screaming fights. The big one was about the Rolling Stones. This was where I realizedthis was 1969boy, I was bounced, fast, right out of the movement. And I had this huge argument. Because I said you cannot apply a political agenda to art. When it comes to art, we have to make other distinctions. We had this huge fight about the song "Under My Thumb." I said it was a great song, not only a great song but I said it was a work of art. And these feminists of the New Haven Women's Liberation Rock Band went into a rage, surrounded me, practically spat in my face, literally my back was to the wall. They're screaming in my face, "Art? Art? Nothing that demeans women can be art!" There it is. There it is! Right from the start. The fascism of the contemporary women's movement.

Feminism is 200 years old. Ever since Mary Wollstonecraft wrote that manifesto in 1790. It's 200 years old. It's had many phases. We can criticize the present phase without necessarily criticizing feminism, I want to save feminism from the feminists. What I identify with is the prewar feminism of Amelia Earhart, of Katherine Hepburnwho had an enormous impact on methat period of women where you had independence, self-reliance, personal responsibility, and not blaming other people for your problems. I want to bring that back."

ofcourse this a huge hit because of Glee.

I got into Sister Rosetta Tharpe. A blues/gospel legend.

I like blues, so I have listened to the Rolling Stones.

There are so many fantastic female artist out there. Tracy Chapman.

I like Superwoman by Alicia Keys.

I wonder what African Americans make of this idea that white men singing about young girls tasting of brown sugar is somehow connected to their struggle...

let me compare that song to this one

The higher you build your barriers
The taller I become
The farther you take my rights away
The faster I will run
You can deny me
You can decide to turn your face away
No matter, cos there's....

Something inside so strong
I know that I can make it
Tho' you're doing me wrong, so wrong
You thought that my pride was gone
Oh no, something inside so strong
Oh oh oh oh oh something inside so strong

The more you refuse to hear my voice
The louder I will sing
You hide behind walls of Jericho
Your lies will come tumbling
Deny my place in time
You squander wealth that's mine
My light will shine so brightly
It will blind you
Cos there's......

What about all the 'doncha wish your girlfriend was hot like me' type lyrics? Queasy

That JLS song "Beat again" where he's whining that he's been dumped and he thinks they "should have never broke up". And it's all about him dying and would she go to his funeral...

She left you for no doubt excellent reasons, wah, stop with the emotional blackmail.

I think it's that he's not trying to find out what went wrong, offering to change if it was his behaviour or even that he'd try to make her happy. Just loading on guilt.

Ahhh, over-thinking things, love it.

Really? Much as I think the song to be very bland, I never interpreted 'More than words' to be anti-women or anything: it's just a song about a person (and it is a song that could also be sung by a woman) saying that actions speak louder than words when it comes to loving someone

I always thought the Supertramp song was meant to be humourous..?

What if you're a feminist who likes some really sexist music/songs? Sometimes lyrics are funny or ironic or just a snapshot of a feeling or a thought - they aren't supposed to be a full statement of the lyricists beliefs.

I love Johnny Cash, for example. Not exactly a feminist icon, was he? I also like a lot of rap. I like the beats and the clever wordplay. Am I not supposed to like it?

It's not about stopping you listening to things, it's about recognising the dodginess. Or that's my take on it. [shrug]

But what if you recognise the 'dodginess' but you still enjoy the music? I don't necessarily need all of the art I enjoy to be politically correct. I don't want to listen to 'feminist' music (whatever that is). I want to listen to music that touches me in some way.

Britney Spears 'Hit me baby' doesn't touch me, though, so I'm alright on that front

I don't know, I'm not the boss of you.

I love literature; I love literary critique. I can read something and absolutely love it and still enjoy picking out the threads of dodginess .

Does it make it any less a great piece of literature? No. Does it give it a free pass? No.

I can't believe no-one's mentioned "Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen" yet. A lovely little paean to barely-legal lust, disguised as a sweet love song. Blech. It always sounds like the viewpoint is an older man who's seen the girl in the song growing up, too.

No discussion at all of the Camille Paglia quote? On a feminism thread?

"not blaming other people for your problems. I want to bring that back."

Yes, you and Camille are absolutely right.
Women should stop blaming patriarchy and start blaming themselves. FOr example, when a woman is raped, she should stop blaming rapists and start blaming herself..Hang on, Wait a minute ....

HelenBa I hate that "DOncha wish your girlfriend" song...

yes zikes it's about recognizing the dodginess, as opposed to being oblivious to it. If that doesn't affect how you view the art, great; if it does alter your opinion, then obviously the art wasn't great enough to transcend in the first place.

When it comes down to it anyway, the truly great artists/novelists/songwriters are able to transcend class, race and gender making their work truly timeless.

I hate the way this one makes out women are gold-diggers, who only want one thing (money) from a man and then will dump him as soon as they're out of their tight spot

You were working as a waitress in a cocktail bar
When I met you
I picked you out, I shook you up and turned you around
Turned you into someone new
Now five years later on, you've got the world at your feet
Success has been so easy for you
But don't forget it's me who put you where you are now
And I can put you back down too

Don't, don't you want me
You know I can't believe it when I hear that you won't see me
Don't, don't you want me
You know I don't believe you when you say that you don't need me
It's much too late to find
You think you've changed your mind
You'd better change it back
Or we will both be sorry

Why should we discuss Camille Paglia?

She's a self-aggrandising arsehole.

Ooh ooh, another one, I posted this on another thread about what song lyrics would sound like on MN: Take That's Back for Good - "whatever I did, whatever I said I didn't mean it, I just want you back for good" ... in other words, no recognition or acknowlegement of bad behaviour, no addressing it and taking steps to change it, jsut pathetic whingeing and begging in this injured innocent "I have no idea what I did wrong, but I am the good guy here and you are the bad one because look, see how sad you've made me waaaah...come back and let our relationship carry on as before"

And yes I love it. And love over-thinking it.

ha! You're so right about hte lyrics to that song

sakura - I find the last line of that quote of the song quite chilling & threatening too:
"You'd better change it back
Or we will both be sorry"

HerBex - I like that song (about the only Take That song I do like!) but now it's changed forever in my mind . I think you are right though. There is a certain lack of responsibility-taking in the words(deliberate or otherwise - clutching at straws!).