pro-life feminism- an oxymoron?

[darleneconnor]

I dont know if it's possible to have this discussion without it turning into a pro/anti abortion or a pro/anti feminism catfight debate, but we'll see.

Having been an almost/potentially aborted fetus myself I was quite stongly anti-abortion in my teens. In those days I saw feminism/feminists as synonymous with pro-choice, and thus rejected the entire feminist cause (naive teen that I was).

In my 20s I got into feminism big time but found it difficult to reconcile with my (now much more liberal but still anti) views on abortion.

Now, in my 30's I see the pro-life movement (esp in USA) as deeply mysognyistic and would not wish to allign myself with them at all.

However, I do still think that abortion (esp surgical) is quite an unpleasent thing and that society would be better off if there were fewer of them. I would NEVER vote for any kind of criminalisation but I do think some effort should be made to reduce the numbers. No-one ever talks about this, probably because they are scared of being associated with radical anti-abortionists, which I can understand. But surely it is a feminist issue to try to prevent some of the female suffering that comes from this? Even if you discount the embryo/fetus, abortions (esp later ones)can be traumatic and harmful both physically and psychologically to the woman. The debate is so caught up with issues of fetal viability that the woman is forgotten.

So, the question is: can I be a feminist and think that (some) abortions are bad for (some) women?

How can you not end and ectopic? Other than by dying?

"As I said before, the people squawking and whining about term abortions are people who don't like women".

SGB, I should have known that this debate would not end well when you got involved. There's nothing like a bit of respectful debate and that's what you've provided. Nothing like it at all.

I'm out. Except to say to sakura that I understand that the very first C sections were carried out when the mother was already dead, initially out of a belief that a woman should not be buried pregnant and later in an attempt to save the baby from otherwise certain death. Amazing what a slightly different perspective will do.

You can't BuzzLightYear - an ectopic pregnancy would kill the mother and the foetus. Bit of a bizarre example Abride!

I can't be bothered to show 'respect' to fuckwits. If someone's 'debating position' is ignorant bigotry then it's not worth the effort of being polite to them.

It may sound bizarre to you but that used to be the position: the woman's life was not valued. Nature had to take its course--and obviously there was only one way that could go: death for both. Fortunately there seems to have been a softening on this point.

Catholic Church in being slightly reasonable shocker

You said that the priest was very understanding. About the fact that a woman "chose" not to die, for a foetus that couldn't have lived anyway? Are we meant to be impressed by that?

I wanted to reply to Abr1de's point because I think it was to me:

"I would question the assertion that more information = fewer abortions. There has never been more information made available to children of all ages. The abortion rate has gone up for decades."

It is really difficult to get accurate stats on something that is illegal in some countries so comparing like for like his hard however:

Here is an interesting, if old, paper on the worldwide incidence of abortion which asserts that "Abortion rates are no lower overall in areas where abortion is generally restricted by law (and where many abortions are performed under unsafe conditions) than in areas where abortion is legally permitted." Belgium and The Netherlands had the lowest abortion rate which is significant given the latter renowned openness about sex education.

Abortion rates have been in decline for 3 decades in the US. Though they have plateau-ed recently.

UK abortion stats are easily available at the National Office of Statistics. These are 2009's which continue 2008's downward trend. 6.6k abortions were for non-UK residents - I'm guessing most of these were Irish women as I think that is the only country near where abortion is illegal.

Like I say it is really hard to get historical stats - abortion was illegal until the late 60s (though interestingly the historian David Kynaston in Family Britain says there were around 12,000 legal medical abortions a year taking place to save the health of the mother in the 1950s - before the procedure was legalised.

The only one I have found is Royal Manchester Infirmary did a small study of their female patients in the 1890s and found that around 40-50% of women admitted to terminating a pregnancy at some point.

BTW permission to LOL at 'children of all ages' - did you mean 'women' and was that a Freudian slip?

I'd just like to point out that on the abortion front the Catholic Church is not slightly reasonable:
Excommunication for those involved in abortion of 9 year old incest victim (the rapist was not excommunicated).
Excommunication for nun who OK'd abortion to save a mothers life.

That should be abortion for 9 year old, not of

No Freudian slip at all, I meant children of all ages receive sex education in a way I don't remember it being disseminated when I was at primary school. They always seem to be having PHSE sessions on it and I just question if it really achieves as much as it is supposed to. Using comparisons with the Netherlands isn't, in my view, helpful. Our society is more broken than theirs appears to be.
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'You said that the priest was very understanding. About the fact that a woman "chose" not to die, for a foetus that couldn't have lived anyway? Are we meant to be impressed by that?'

It's a step change if you are, like me, in your late forties and grew up in a far harsher environment towards woman. A small but hard won step.

I don't think thats any kind of step to be be boasting about sorry. Thats one of the many reasons why I left my catholic upbringing far behind me.

"Using comparisons with the Netherlands isn't, in my view, helpful. Our society is more broken than theirs appears to be."

If you do a side by side comp with The Netherlands on CIA Factbook we're very similar demographically. I'm really not sure what you mean by "more broken".

Also if children have more sex education now compared to when you were at school maybe the recent reductions in abortion rate are starting to reflect that.

As a matter of principle, I support abortion on demand - women's right to control their own bodies and all that - but last night I suddenly thought of a problem which is really bothering me and I'd like to know what you all think - gender selection through abortion. If we are to support abortion on demand, what is to stop the abortion of female foetuses for the sole reason that they are the 'wrong' gender? I'm not sure this is as simple an issue as I initially thought.

PoP: More feminism to encourage people to value babies regardless of gender, that's what.
Otherwise, distressing as you might find it that someone aborts a pregnancy because of the wrong gender of foetus, it's no more of your business than any other reason for a woman choosing to abort.

More than individual women's choices to abort females, I am concerned with the effects on overall gender balance within society. I don't really know what the consequences are of such gender imbalance but if such a policy were to affect the whole of society in this way - as happens in India and China - I think it does go beyond being solely the business of individual women. I'm also concerned about family pressure on women to abort girls.

I don't know what the answer is.

Here's a clue for you: the answer is not restricting all women's access to abortion because of what some women might do.

I get that, I really do. I'm just concerned with unintended consequences - I have no desire to live in an even more male dominated society.

The answer is ensuring that women also get to choose not to have an abortion. I suspect the vast majority of abortions due to "wrong" gender are influenced hugely by external factors (as are many for other reasons, financial etc)

The fact that many women do not have the true choice not to abort isn't a reason to curtail the rights of those who make a free choice to have one.