pro-life feminism- an oxymoron?

[darleneconnor]

I dont know if it's possible to have this discussion without it turning into a pro/anti abortion or a pro/anti feminism catfight debate, but we'll see.

Having been an almost/potentially aborted fetus myself I was quite stongly anti-abortion in my teens. In those days I saw feminism/feminists as synonymous with pro-choice, and thus rejected the entire feminist cause (naive teen that I was).

In my 20s I got into feminism big time but found it difficult to reconcile with my (now much more liberal but still anti) views on abortion.

Now, in my 30's I see the pro-life movement (esp in USA) as deeply mysognyistic and would not wish to allign myself with them at all.

However, I do still think that abortion (esp surgical) is quite an unpleasent thing and that society would be better off if there were fewer of them. I would NEVER vote for any kind of criminalisation but I do think some effort should be made to reduce the numbers. No-one ever talks about this, probably because they are scared of being associated with radical anti-abortionists, which I can understand. But surely it is a feminist issue to try to prevent some of the female suffering that comes from this? Even if you discount the embryo/fetus, abortions (esp later ones)can be traumatic and harmful both physically and psychologically to the woman. The debate is so caught up with issues of fetal viability that the woman is forgotten.

So, the question is: can I be a feminist and think that (some) abortions are bad for (some) women?

Why do you think a sane person would want an abortion at 38 weeks MsH, when she hasn't wanted one up to then?

Well, Buzz, that is where we differ. I don't like the idea of abortion at all though I would not have it be entirely illegal. However, I do completely agree with DilysPrice in that I believe there comes a point where the potential person has sufficient potential that their interests should be given some weight and that, sometimes that will outweigh the lesser impact on the woman.

After all, before birth could be 39+6. So many babies are born naturally before that time that the idea of "aborting" a foetus at that stage seems abhorrent to me. And yet, that is precisely what is, potentially, implied by "abortion on demand at any stage".

I am pro-choice and believe feminism is a good and essential thing for our society.

Abortions are a very sad, last resort scenario, I wouldnt wish it on anyone but I will always defend their right to have one if they find themself in that unfortunate situation.

I think this is the general consensus, and I dont see any reason to change it.

Yes it is implied.

But seriously, in what circumstances do you think it would ever happen?

I don't think it's necessary to contemplate that, HerBeX. My point is not that I think it probable that anyone would want to do it. But, if it is unthinkable that it should happen at that late stage then it follows that it goes from being thinkable to being unthinkable at some point. I'm interested in where that point is once you have inferred its existence.

How many people do you know who would try and have an abortion at 39 weeks? None. And how many doctors do you think would do it if it were legal? agin I'm thinking none.

But really your whole argument is that you (and thats a general you) you shoulkd make that distinction for other women. And I'm just wondering what gives you the right?

These anti-choice people are weird. And very controlling. I really dont think its any of your business, darlene and MsHigh.

Its good that they are able to discuss their viewpoints though, and hopefully become enlightened.

But it is necessary to contemplate it, if that is the only reason you want to give the state rights over a woman's body that it hasn't got over a man's

Oh I believe that a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy right up until the last minute. I have no problem whatsoever with this belief. Because the chances of any woman suddenly requesting a termination at 39.6 weeks for no other reason than capriciousness are so incredibly, incredibly small that allowing for the possibility is acceptable when the alternative is forcing women to carry unwanted (or life-threatening) pregnancies to term just to satisfy the feelings of fuckwitted foetusworshippers who don;t comprehend the idea that other women;s bodies and lives are not their business.

what she said.

I think that an awful lot of 'choice' can be exercised before arriving at an unwanted pregnancy

During my pregnancy with #2, I asked my surgical staff (section) to tie my tubes. They refused on 2 counts. 1/ That it isn't as reliable, because everything is swollen. 2/ What if something happens to he baby during the rest of my pregnancy/birth/shortly after. They didn't believe me when I said that if anything happened, I didn't want to be pregnant again. They wouldn't listen.

I asked my GP at 3 & 6 week post birth to refer me for sterilization. He said no. Because I was a 'traumatised mother reacting to a traumatic birth'. I wasn't! My 2nd wasn't traumatic. It was a planned section & was very relaxed. I told him this. He still said no.

So I had to wait a year, vasectomy here is a 7yr wait on public health & a private one was $4k.

I found out I was pregnant when dd2 was 5mths

I had a double contraceptive failure.

So, do you think I exercised enough 'choice' before I became pregnant?

If anyone (in a medical/official capacity) had told me that I couldn't have a termination (very bad pregnancies lead me to not wanting any more) I would have crashed my car into a wall at high speed. Such was my need not to be pregnant! I don't say that to be dramatic. I say it because it was true, I lived in hell for 4 weeks before I got my termination. And was prepared to take drastic measures not to be pregnant again.

I am not telling anyone what to think, you can think what you like. I am just aghast that people think it is in line with feminism to leave a woman like me pregnant when she doesn't want to be. It wasn't so much the baby I didn't want, but I didn't want to my body through another bad pregnancy, after 2 had already took a toll on my body.

What would be the difference between an abortion at 39.6 weeks and an elective caesarean? Are we basing this on the idea that an aborted foetus has no right to life once it has left the mother's body, even if it is born alive and does not need medical intervention to remain alive?

Well whats the difference between an abortion at 32 weeks and section then? A friend of mine had the former. Its not quite the same thing.

I don't know what the difference is; that is why I am asking. What happens to a foetus that is aborted but is alive after the abortion?

Why would it be alive after it is aborted? An injection of potassium general stops the heart pretty quickly.

MillyR: It wouldn't happen. As BLB says, an injection of potassium would be administered before the abortion proper commenced, and in nearly all, if not all cases of a termination at this late a stage, the foetus would be one that would either not be born alive were it not aborted, or would not survive outside the womb without a lot of medical attention and then not for long.

I do think that a woman has the right to make choices about her own body,the difficulty is that when pregnant she is not solely her body,she is also partially someone elses,and so on that level a comparison with men,and their freedoms,is impossible.I consider myself a feminist,but I have grave misgivings about abortion and the general attitude towards it.I have heard women say "no different to having a tooth out" about abortion,but the reality to me is quite different.I have seen friends bitterly regret or bury grief about abortion,and I have also seen friends either pressured into or nearly pressured into an abortion by men.In fact many of the women I know who terminated a pregancy would not have done so if the father had not been pushing them into it,and that happens because abortion is so socially accepted.I also find the general reporting of abortion for problems like Downs really disturbing,the accent being on the babies who are not downs who die as a result of amnio,rather than the vast number of downs babies who are terminated.This is not a judgement on any one individual.It is a concern about a society that assumes a woman under a certain age,or without "perfect" cicumstances,or with a baby with a disability,will terminate.there is only a tiny gap between that "will" and a "should".

no its not someone elses, its still hers. Thats the point. My body is always mine, no matter what is inside it.

I don't understand the idea that she is partly someone else's body.

No, I was never partly my DS's or my DD's body. They were very early on, part of mine though.

No,I don't agree,your body is yours,but the body of the person inside it is theirs.How can it be horrifying to kill a new born baby ex-utero,but acceptable if that same baby at the same gestational age,is in-utero? I don't get that at all.Just because it is hidden away?
They are themselves whilst inside us,they are still our babies,just smaller.I had a colleague who had been through an abortion at 28 weeks,just before the 24 week limitations came in,and it had completely destroyed her along with her baby.I will never understand why she wasn't supported more to go through another three months and have her baby adopted.

Because maybe an adoption would also have destroyed her?

It did many women.

they don't have personhood, there is no "theirs". its my body, my choice what happens inside it. I am the grown human being, my choice as to what grows inside my body.

We need to have a society where adoption and abortion are unnecessary, unless the choice to do either is genuinely free.

And we'll only have that where women are respected as full human beings and where motherhood is genuinely respected and valued. The irony is, we need abortion precisely because motherhood is so constricted and controlled within patriarchy.

differentnameforthis - it's appalling that your requests were dismissed in the way they were. I'm really sorry you went through such a hard time :(