pro-life feminism- an oxymoron?

[darleneconnor]

I dont know if it's possible to have this discussion without it turning into a pro/anti abortion or a pro/anti feminism catfight debate, but we'll see.

Having been an almost/potentially aborted fetus myself I was quite stongly anti-abortion in my teens. In those days I saw feminism/feminists as synonymous with pro-choice, and thus rejected the entire feminist cause (naive teen that I was).

In my 20s I got into feminism big time but found it difficult to reconcile with my (now much more liberal but still anti) views on abortion.

Now, in my 30's I see the pro-life movement (esp in USA) as deeply mysognyistic and would not wish to allign myself with them at all.

However, I do still think that abortion (esp surgical) is quite an unpleasent thing and that society would be better off if there were fewer of them. I would NEVER vote for any kind of criminalisation but I do think some effort should be made to reduce the numbers. No-one ever talks about this, probably because they are scared of being associated with radical anti-abortionists, which I can understand. But surely it is a feminist issue to try to prevent some of the female suffering that comes from this? Even if you discount the embryo/fetus, abortions (esp later ones)can be traumatic and harmful both physically and psychologically to the woman. The debate is so caught up with issues of fetal viability that the woman is forgotten.

So, the question is: can I be a feminist and think that (some) abortions are bad for (some) women?

Not in Holland it hasn't. They talk extremely frankly about sex there and have an very low rate of abortion. I think there is something more complex about the individual society behind abortion rates.

I am a feminist. I am anti abortion. I would not choose to criminalise it now as it would be driven underground and the problem would still exist. I wouldn't judge anyone who made the choice for themselves as some close to me have done.

As far as women's autonomy goes- we do not have full autonomy over our bodies- abortion is limited in term (unless there are severe abnormalities, which is a whole other debate). I also agree that there is another human being involved with rights of their own.

There are pro-life groups which support women through unwanted pregnancy and offer practical support like baby goods, I certainly agree that more can be done. And I also agree with the poster above who said that

But finally, I also think that it is not necessary to have sex. If you absolutely cannot under any circumstances have a baby then don't do it. Noone ever mentiona that as an option. I think that women, and young women especially, having more control and autonomy at an earlier stage over their bodies (and a less pornified society) would lead to fewer unwanted pregnancies.

HerBex. All adults have their choice of actions constrained to some extent by what society as a whole thinks is acceptable. Thus, assault is illegal. Thus, abortion at 8 months is illegal.

Why can it not be acceptable for feminists to think that there are some circumstances in which a woman's right to act as she chooses must be constrained by a balancing consideration of the foetus? A foetus is not part of a woman's body. The moment that you accept that abortion over a certain limit is unacceptable you accept this in principle.

I'm with Highwater to some extent. If the decision on whether to abort or not lies with the woman, then so too does the responsibility for avoiding creating an unwanted life.

Without the woman there is no foetus. And the sexualisation and expectation of very young women is definitely a contributing factor in pregnancy rates, which again diminishes the concept of choice.

Bugger, my second last paragraph should have said something like, I agree with the poster who said we need to raise the status of and support for motherhood in society so that it becomes a realistic choice for some women who feel it is not.

How would motherhood be a realistic choice for some mothers? It's the personal support that people require, raising that is unrealistic.

Perhaps if we made men more accountable for pregnancy they be less eager to fuck anything that moves.

A better term for prolifers is 'fetus-worshippers'. Their interest in a fetus stops the minute it's born. SOme prolifers actively campaign against thing like state-funded childcare to enable a single mother to work. Their whole agenda is about removing women's human rights. An awful lot of the harmful, stressful and misleading crap that is peddled to pregnant women comes from these arseholes, like the obsession with stopping pregnant women from drinking any alcohol at all (despite the risks from moderate drinking being negligible) and the scaremongering about what women eat and the constant nagging at women about the right age to get pregnant.

I certainly agree with you about the public 'right' to tell pregnant women what to do. It makes me mad that a woman who might like an odd glass of wine during pregnancy is made to fee like a criminal.

If men would have to pay maintenance for every baby they make, they might not be so keen to do "it" without condom

yes, of course...because accidents happen only when you don't use contraception! Get real!

EVERY form of contraception fails. At some point.

That is a lot of unwanted pregnancies which = unwanted babies.

YOU CANNOT & SHOULD NOT EVER THINK IT IS OK TO FORCE A WOMAN TO HAVE A BABY SHE DOESN'T WANT.

That's not feminism!

I also think that it is not necessary to have sex. If you absolutely cannot under any circumstances have a baby then don't do it

So, because I don't want any more children, I should stop having sex with my husband? OK, so that would turn me into a baby machine, surely? To only have sex when I want a baby!

What a ridiculous view!

Now that's a kind of interesting post which makes me feel rather sorry for you and the rubbish sex life you must have.
Sex is not just about conception. A great deal of sex takes place (and is greatly enjoyed) that will not lead to conception anyway - oral, anal, manual and same-gender.
Interestingly, quite a lot of the type of sexual activity that is not conception-related is more enjoyable for women than penis-in-vagina thrusting ie the sort that might induce conception.
I am entirely pro-choice because the bottom line is that women are people and foetuses are only potential people so they don't have 'rights', as the only way to give foetuses rights is to remove rights from women.
However, I sometimes think that campaigns to encourage people to have less penis-in-vagina sex might be a good thing. As well as encouraging het couples who are sure they have had all the DC they want to book the bloke a vasectomy (a considerably less debilitating and dangerous operation than female sterilization).

Thanks for the thought SGB but my sex life is fine thanks I suppose I should have said 'don't have penis in vagina sex'. Of course it is possible to have a sex life without it.

I wasn't specifically thinking of your situation differentname. I do think that society puts a huge amount of pressure on especially young people to be having lots of sex and it ought to be more acceptable/encouraged to say no. It also ought to be ok to accept the consequences of one's actions. And that goes for men and women, although of course the biological consequences are not the same.

And as far as a married couple who have had all the DC they want, I agree with SGB that a vasectomy seems like a sensible choice. I think that an awful lot of 'choice' can be exercised before arriving at an unwanted pregnancy.

I suppose I am an idealist, and I would wish for a world where 100% effective contraception was freely available, where women exercise genuinely free choice over sexual activity and where there is financial, practical and emotional support available to all pregnant women and mothers. I do recognise that the world isn't like that.

I have some difficulty working this all out in my own mind, and I have avoided such threads in the past and perhaps I should have avoided this one! But to answer the OP, I don't think it is an oxymoron.

"YOU CANNOT & SHOULD NOT EVER THINK IT IS OK TO FORCE A WOMAN TO HAVE A BABY SHE DOESN'T WANT." Finally, I get that you are passionate about this, but you can't tell another woman what she cannot and should not think; that's not feminism either.

I find it surprising that we still don't have abortion on demand in the UK. Is even more of a surprise that this doesn't seem to be a big feminist issue.

You would be forgiven for thinking that the status quo is pro-choice, but a woman's right to choose what happens to her body is no codified in UK abortion law.

We still have a pragmatic fudge that decriminalised abortion on the basis that a ban would do more harm - the 'lesser of two evils' approach.

A woman still needs two doctors to agree that , on balance, an abortion would be better or her physical or mental health. In practice this may be a formality, but it is still deeply patronising and paternalistic.

At least in the US, the have the landmark judgement in Roe v. Wade that establishes a woman's rights, even if it says these have to balanced against those of the state to protect a 'viable' foetus.

"Without the woman there is no foetus"

Exactly!

you can't give rights to a foetus without taking them from a woman,and if you want to control other womans bodies you are not a feminist. find a dictionary, find a new label.

"However, I sometimes think that campaigns to encourage people to have less penis-in-vagina sex might be a good thing. "

Exactly!

Yes that is patronizing when you think about it Jeanine -the fact that the woman's rights are not part of the equation in the UK

Did anyone hear the R4 program about young male attitudes to sex? OMFG, apparently one category girls get put into is a 'sharing' category, if she'll fuck she'll get shared and recommended, but then there's wifey...means not shared and so on....shocking and vile.

I think you can support the right for women to have an abortion but hold the view that you personally would never have one. Thats the whole issue really, giving women the choice

In a world where even 'protected' sex is not guaranteed to not result in pregnancy, abortion must be allowed.

To be anti-abortion is to be anti-feminist, IMO.

Feminism should also support every measure to allow women to not get pregnant in the first place unless they wish - education, availability of the best contraception, the confidence to say 'no', men being responsible too, but even with all of these things in place there will still be unwanted pregnancies and women should be able to choose to terminate these if they wish.

Some of the language on here suggests that anyone who supports the current state of the UK law - under which a woman would not be allowed termination of a healthy 30 week foetus - is not a feminist. Is that the general consensus? Because I do broadly support UK law as it stands (though I'd make it simple abortion on demand before 12 weeks) and I'm damned if I'm handing in my feminist badge.

Well I personally think that if you are happy for the state to control a woman's body, when it doesn't control a man's, then that is not a feminist position.

Doesn't mean you can't be a feminist, but I struggle to see how allowing the state to decide whether a woman bears a child or not, instead of her, can possibly be described as feminist. Feminists can hold positions which aren't feminist, I'm sure most of us do on some issues.

I'm not in favour of abortions btw - I think in general they are a Bad Thing and would like to live in a society where they weren't a social and economic necessity. But while patriarchy survives, they are, and even if patriarchy didn't exist, they would sometimes be an emotional and/ or psychological necessity.

You are allowed to have an abortion over 30 weeks btw, if there are health problems with the foetus. (Not sure waht the position is if there are health problems for the woman.)