So what do we think about these parental leave proposals?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Obviously first thought is "about bloody time too", but on listening, I'm not sure how good the details are.

Can't see all that many men going for it personally.

The shared parental leave? I'm all for it. But DH, who is doing a job he does not enjoy at a very low level, thinks that even if he asked to take it there would be a huge impact for him. And he's not a high flyer etc. Which I think is ridiculous but I think proves that there's a huge societal change needed before this is doable.

On the other comments Nick C was making, I am not sure that helping parents make friends should really be government's objective!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12204079

well it's a start right? It's the beginning at least. I am optimistic, if it ends up as good as it sounds then it is a vital first step.

Bling - as far as i'm concerned, being mother is currently more detrimental to women for longer than for men with some paternity leave. It's a double edged sword in a way in that now both men and women can fuck up their careers (obviously a bit extreme in my phraseology there but you get what i mean) but short term lose, long term gain and hopefully companies will realise that having children is a way of life and will learn to work around it.

if I had gone back to work after dc3 it would have been useful for us to have had dh at home full time during my first couple of months back: I could have focused 100% on work without having to worry about home, having to take time off for sick kids etc.

and given how much time I'd taken off over the course of 3 dcs and difficult pregnancies he could have put up with a couple of months away from work IMO.

I sort of hope men do find it detrimental, not because I want them to suffer just because women have - but because it will provide evidence that puts to rest this idea that the only reason women don't get ahead is because they choose not to and that's an end to it :(

Yes anastasia you're right. It's childcare and it's about time men shared the burden.

Msrisotto - I agree with you. But sadly, you and I are not representative of society as a whole.

It's endlessly frustrating to me that the changes required go deeper than just changing legislation but also attitudes of companies and employees.

Let me give you an example. During Christmas and New Year, there were a few of us working to keep office ticking over. It was deadly quiet. My boss (a man) suggested I feel free to leave early. I thanked him, but as I had a doctor's appointment, told him there wasn't any point and suggested he therefore feel free to go home to his wife and child and I would cover the office. He said, "it's actually more relaxing at the office so I think I will stay."

Clearly, this is not a man who is going to want to take up paternity leave. And I'd consider him a pretty forward thinking, modern guy relatively speaking...!

I don't think they need to be doing anything to 'encourage' men to take parental leave, don't think that't the government's business really. But absolutely agree that the leave should be shared and/or available to either parent, the current inequality is a disgrace and bad for both women's careers and men's family life.

But sadly, you and I are not representative of society as a whole

I do forget this. It seems such a straightforward situation it's frustrating and I forget that others don't see it the same way. How could they not? :(

I hope your boss isn't representative of men as a whole either. I have heard of SAHDs and men sharing the workload to a point so parental leave would hopefully begin a gradual change to the norm as it is.

what about the small business with only 2 or 3 staff - how are they supposed to keep going with maybe 50% less staff - there are 2 sides to consider

but shared parental leave is no different from maternity leave in that respect.
(Except that there will be less point in illegally discriminating against women when hiring on the grounds that they might take mat leave.)

I realise I'm taking my life in my hands by posting in Feminism but here goes...

Firstly; mollymole I run a small business and employ both men and women and part of correctly managing a business is ensuring you have processes in place for managing staff absence - whether though ill health or maternity leave or anything else. It can be challenging, but shared parental leave will make less enlightened employers less likely to discriminate against women of child-bearing age if men are also likely to take similar length leave.

But I do have a genuine concern; when my DW and I were thinking about children I assumed we would be able to share childcare equally (somewhat naive, I know). However, in practice our DS needed 10-14 feeds per day until 6 months (and a little beyond) and with him being exclusively breastfed I simply could not have done this. I now have him 1 day per week and my wife works 3 days per week (he's in nursery 2 days per week).

Are expressing/ff the only options or am I missing something?

'I realise I'm taking my life in my hands by posting in Feminism but here goes...'

We welcome well-informed and enlightened men, honest!

The first thing I would say is that not all babies are like that - some are snackers but others settle down to a much smaller number of feeds quite early, which makes the whole thing easier to manage. (I had one baby like yours and 2 who fed more infrequently.)

If the workplace is near home the mother can literally pop home to feed (I know people who did that when mat leave was 6 weeks, back in the day) or have the baby brought into the workplace. My kids were in a university campus nursery and some of the mothers would pop in to feed during the day.

There's mixed feeding, too - doesn't have to be all or nothing. And some mothers find that when they go back to work the babies start feeding more at night instead of during the day.

It might be that a lot of families will do what I would have done and have the dad do it at the end of the period and the mother at the beginning.

I can certainly see this being really useful to families where the woman is the higher earner, or is at a point in her career where a year off isn't possible but the preference of the couple is not to use paid childcare until absolutely necessary.

For us it wouldn't have changed anything, DH already earned far more than I did when I started my mat leave with DS. We couldn't have afforded for him to be off work unpaid and me working.

neils the suggestion at the moment is that men can take up to 6 months of their partner's 12 months leave. So in your case, your wife could have taken say 7 months and you could have had 5.

Obviously there are questions of people being able to afford the full 12 months.
And obviously a lot of people do FF or mixed feed, and your baby was a very frequnet feeder by the sound of things!

So the option is there and families can use it or not as suits their circumstances.

The money thing is a big point though.

At the moment stat mat pay is 90% for the first 6 weeks, then about £100 a week up til 9 months, then 9 months to 1 year is unpaid.

In most couples the man earns more than the woman.

So how likely is it that families are going to be able to afford it / happy to sacrifice the higher earners wages, for a period when 3 months is unpaid and the other 3 is very little? Not many is the answer.

So in practice, sadly, I don't think this will actually make much difference.. Unless stat pay rules are changed somehow, and private companies decide to give generous pat leave pay etc.

What would have been great for us:

Both off for say the first 6 weeks. ie the time it takes to get used to a new baby, baby starts settling down a bit, recovery from CS is usually 6 weeks etc. Both parents get a good crack at the baby, mum has support so less likely to get PND, family doens't immediately become set up as mum does baby and dad does work, all positive stuff.

Then ability for leave later on to be swapped around according to the needs of the family, but they need to do something to teh financial side so that people actually take it. Few will stray from the status quo if there is a financial penalty attached.

This needs to be done very thoughtfully Are you listening nick?

i am always confused re the breastfeeding thing- how can we simultaneously promote exclusive breastfeeding and women going back to work earlier?

I just posted about this elsewhere: my DH was saying to me how he'd love to take 6 months paternity leave - but went a bit pale when I said 'OK then'. . .

I think it is definitely a progressive step - whether or not there is a stampede of uptake for it.

Nowwearefour - because this is a choice. At the moment, women don't have to stay off for a full 12 months (and many can't afford to), but they don't currently have the option to offer the leave that they are not taking to their DH/DP. I think this legislation sounds like a good start.

What I think is that Toby Young is a twat

I think that most women will be able to return to work before their baby is 11/12 months old, and still have an exclusive BF relationship, if they want to.

toby young?

what have i missed?