So what do we think about these parental leave proposals?

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

Obviously first thought is "about bloody time too", but on listening, I'm not sure how good the details are.

I suppose there is a concern that while most women will be in a position to choose whether to hand some of the leave to their partner, some partners will force their partner to hand the leave over.

Personally I think that the risk of this is outweighed by all the people who do not have abusive partners who will be able to choose.

I don't think anyone has said anyone else is being anti-feminist - there are different views on this thread but all of them have some merit from a feminist POV.

The idea that women are the ones who carry a child, give birth, and can BF, and that is a special thing isn't saying that men are rubbish at looking after babies, but more trying to keep in mind that having a baby is a singularly huge thing for a woman and the reason that maternity leave was invented in the first place was to allow women to have babies without losing their livelihoods over it. And that as soon as we manage to achieve a whole year of maternity leave with a job being held open, immediately some of that gain is taken away from being specific to the woman and shared with men as well. In the context of a society where men are in charge and women have to fight for every gain, that can be seen as giving ground I suppose.

Hmmm.

How would these rules apply in situations where the parents can't agree (esp where they are not together and don't get on)? I presume the woman gets the last word?

Whoever gets the last word depends on the relationship I suppose.

Same as at the moment most families decide together what is best, but in a bad relationship the partner could force the mother to go back to work before they were ready, if they were like that IYSWIM.

I don't think there will be any rules about who gets to decide these things.

In practice, in countries with this sort of policy, you do not get both parents scrapping over who gets to take the leave. Women take most of it, and a few men take a little bit. You'll only get significant numbers of men taking it if there are specific "daddy days", and even then men don't rush in their droves.

I don't think there's really too much danger of this policy leading to fathers pushing reluctant mothers back into the workplace.

Can you honestly legislate for the minority of relationships which are dysfunctional though? I am sure that in most cases nothing will change - as has been pointed out many times, more often than not the man is the main earner - and there is the usual inertia when changes come about. But maybe, as time goes by, life will get easier for mothers who want to keep a career going.

Fennel, exactly. Many of my friends in Canada have gone through this and usually the mother takes the vast majority, while the father takes a month or two at the end. If they take more it's usually because the mother is self employed and not eligible for leave, for instance. I have never seen a case of "parental leave rage" where a couple is at loggerheads over who gets to stay home. Of course there may be issues in couples where the balance of power is not equal, but we could say that of any choice made within such a relationship.

I think that you have to consider those relationships but not legislate for them IYSWIM?

So when thinking up the policy and funding you have to be aware that they exist; and that the change of policy may have an impact. Say you might get more women with very young babies leaving abusive partners so you might need to fund more specialised support services or suitable centres for them to stay. Or you might get more women trying to combine breastfeeding with working so you need to prioritise that in training for health professionals. But having additional considerations for some people shouldn't mean that no families get the choices.

As a Dad I would have taken this with my DC. I would have loved it.

It's not about legislating for a minority of dysfuncional relationships. As others have said, it's about clinging onto hard-won gains for women. the patriarchy had no problem with women working barefoot and pregnant- literally- in factories for a pittance. Maternity leave is something that women fought for; it was not something handed out.
There seems to be a misunderstanding among some women that it's maternity leave that oppresses women . Or that having babies oppresses women. that's pretty backward logic
It's the patriarchy that oppresses women, it's men who oppress women. So I don't understand why women are so keen to hand back the hard-won gains of the women's movement, such as the right to bodily integrity after birth, over to men.

Got no problem at all with men taking leave alongside women, but it should definitely never be either-or

or what I mean is, that a woman should not have to go back to work so that the dad can take paternity leave. Her leave should always be "open" to her, whatever the dad decides to do.

I completely understand that many women are dying to get back to work ASAP after a baby.
Though I do wonder if that, too, is a reaction to how society has been structured-- but that's for another thread

I've just been asked to give a reference for a former (female) employee. There are a standard set of questions on it such as "how much sick leave was taken in the last year of employment", and immediately under that is the question "how much paternity leave has been taken" - with the word paternity in bold - presumably in case you mistake the question for maternity, which I presume is illegal.

It does though imply, that employers are viewing paternity leave in a similar way to sick leave - which will definitely inhibit men from taking it. So there may need to be an update on legislation in this area.

yes I guess any discrimination on the basis of having taken the leave would be illegal so best not to know IYSWIM

I'm surprised they bother asking about paternity TBH a week or two for what will be a pretty rare event (most people 2 times max) is it really that important?

was there a huge number of questions?

so does no one feel this would increase the chance of employers quietly pressurising women to return to work regardless of what their partners were doing?
would in my field I'm sure

if not the employers maybe the female employees would put pressure on themselves

I really don't think that laws should always operate on the assumption that women need protecting from their partners in all respects. I actually find that a bit offensive, that laws should be all based on poor little women not knowing their minds and being pushed around by all and sundry.

Yes some women are in abusive relationships but that should not be seen as the norm.

as for it being a cultural pressure that makes some women long for the workplace when on maternity leave, I was surrounded by women who liked taking time off, personally I still find it easier to have some time away from babies, in a nice comfy peaceful workplace where noone cries or yells and you can have a cup of coffee without interruption. babies are all very well but they are also a bit relentless, full time.