I am so shocked about that thread stating most women have no pubic hair

[roseability]

I don't know quite why it has disturbed me so much. Like most women I have plucked/shaved and groomed for many years of my life. However the thought of putting myself through that really upsets me for some reason. Not that I plan to. It is just that I have never, ever considered that pubic hair is undesirable. I can't help but relate it to women in porn with little or no pubic hair and it makes me sad to think girls and young women (I have a daughter) will no doubt feel insecure about their vagina and how it looks in this way.

I am by no means a good feminist. As I mentioned I do shave my legs and I wear make up. I have read Beauty and Misogyny by Sheila Jeffreys and I question why I even do this. However it makes me almost weep to think of my daughter being influenced in such a way.

I was just really upset by that thread and I m not sure why

I totally agree that it is psychosomatic.

How come we don't all shave our heads? That would surely make our heads feel "fresher"?

As for wet wipes - surely the chemicals on them are not something you want near your delicate bits? Would you wipe your tongue with them?

God, I'm really going off the word "fresh" now. It's very reminiscent of the way that advertising induces paranoia about germs, as if it's actually possible or desirable to live in a bacteria-free environment.

I do my bikini line, btw, just to stop escapage from my pants. Otherwise, yikes no. I used to get it waxed but lack of cash (and the way that the waxing lady used to keep offering to take the rest off and then looking all when I declined) forced me to stop.

I have to say I don't buy the hygiene argument at all either. I think it has developed as a rationalisation for the fashion, which will then become a common belief, with women who don't remove the hair gradually becoming seen as dirty/unkempt/wrong, in the way that it is already for armpits and legs.

This chucks all of the "choice" stuff out of the window really doesn't it. When it enters society's consciousness that pubic hair on females is disgusting, then there's not that much choice but to take it off. Not taking it off becomes a huge statement, how many girls are happy to be perceived as dirty/disgusting/smelly/unkempt just to make a point? Not many is the answer.

Well having spent the afternoon removing mine in the interests of research, I am already regretting it as my gusset is chaffing summat awful now.

thenightsky have a look at this

this is depressing

it's like there has never been hair there, nor would there ever be. and totally acceptable to advertise a fizzy drink...

Why not shave your head too, if freshness is what you're after? Surely the scalp would feel a lot fresher without all that hair out there in the wind, trapping dust and dirt, germs and birdcrap, harbouring dandruff flakes, making a constant nuisance of itself and needing brushing and grooming, cutting and maybe even colouring... Couldn't you keep your scalp so much fresher without all that hair keeping you from scrubbing it clean?

I haven't read the whole thread (sorry ) but thank you for posting, OP. For some reason the thread in question got to me too - the whole idea that young women in general don't have pubic hair is so sad.

I'm sure it's probably been said already, but the Channel 4/5? programme about sex and young people where the boys were shown pictures of women with pubic hair was disturbing - they all found it distasteful, as they were so used to looking at hair-free women in porn or in 'sleb mags. The girls all said how much pressure they felt under to shave or wax - to be "shaven havens" was the term used by both sexes.

I know I've bought into the whole thing as well. I'm almost 42, and 15/20/25 years ago you just didn't see the same number of beauticians or the grooming products. Now we are constantly bombarded by images of women (often wearing little or nothing) who are groomed to within an inch of their lives, constantly being told we need a certain product, constantly reading about what we and our fanjos should look like.

I like to think of myself as fairly intelligent, but I did find myself buying a bikini trimmer recently - and it's not as if I ever stick a toe in a swimming pool. I have bought into it all, but I've done so as a grown woman - the pressure that my daughter will be under will be enormous. How do we move away from this airbrushed, waxed, preened, neutral, boring identikit look that young people have adopted??

Thing is, the categories here are not straightforward. Clean, fresh, hygienic are - in the depilators' minds - literal. They feel this is what they're doing.

But the categories of hygiene are hugely culturally loaded. It was interesting that Xenia brought up FGM on the other thread - exactly the same terms are used to justify FGM by the women who do it to other women, the women who 'choose' it for their daughters and the men who prop it up.

And dirt is - as Mary Douglas famously said - only 'matter out of place'. It is, simply, what we define it as culturally. It matters not a jot that women 'choose' to be 'cleaner', what matters is the cultural policing of the categories 'clean' and 'dirty'. Of course women choose to: how could they do anything else? This is not the same as 'being told to do it by the porn industry': it is more that the porn industry is one of many stories that justify the bodily categories.

I think I heard once of Bolivian women of European ancestry going around unshaven in order to distinguish themselves from and appear superior to the native Bolivian women who tend to have very little body hair. Must see if I can find the reference.

I saw the documentary, and I find it worrying when people say 'I'm glad I have boys' as though they are removed from it, as though it's girls that are a problem. Yes, we should be giving our girls the confidence to resist sexist pressures but there really should be some focus on making sure boys don't feel entitled to put pressure on girls in the first place.
Btw, have just finished watching Derren Brown, who illustrates very well how easily influenced people are, even when they feel they are acting out of free will.

If any of you emphasising on my 'fresh' comment would like to go back and read my first post on this subject....I said im currently sporting a 'full bush' i am happy to be hairy and also not so hairy,

I do not consider being hairy to be dirty/unclean/whatever i just said i feel fresher particularly in the summer with less hair.

someone said how do i get piss on my pubes, speaking for myself as thats all i can do-its not that hard to get piss on my pubes my pubic hair grows quite long, im actually impressed that you manage to avoid any piss touching your untouched pubic hair. you must have quite short pubic hair?

Its rather ironic that a thread started about women that are influenced and almost forced into removing pubic hair by the influence of porn and their seemingly lack of choice in the matter has turned into lots of posts disaproving of my choice to at times remove mine.....seriously fuck the fuck off, its my body my hair i will do what i like for whatever reason i like who the fuck are you all to try and tell me you 'dont but this argument' etc

bollocks to the lot of you.

Angrily currently hairy of London.

Yes Prole my last post was slightly tongue in cheek. However i stil think its a bit annoying that some people are questioning my reasons for my choice! and implying that they are not valid.

Its my flange i can tend to it as i see fit

Riven Thanks for mentioning how you approached this with your sons I am pondering that at the moment, although DS is one, so maybe I'm being a bit over-zealous in worrying about it just yet..
I'm reading Pornland atm and keep thinking OMG, I'll have to give this to DS to read when he's older, then I vye between wondering whether that'd be too weird, whether he'd be freaked out at his mother doing that... but the conversation has to be had. I wish someone had simply sat me down and told me a lot of things; I may not have taken it on board, but an alternative viewpoint is always useful. I wonder how many men (or women, for that matter) are told- straight out- that porn is not a Good THing.
I just keep thinking as I read it how males would benefit directly from the knowledge within its pages.

amberleaf but a feminist has to ask why a woman chooses to do something that so many women have no choice in
Some women's partners are disgusted by hair, many women have to be hair free for their work (porn actresses, prostitutes, models) It would be unthinkable for those to be un-trimmed (unless it was a niche market, in which case the market dictates how they look, not them)
I can't get my head around the 'it doesn't matter that it's a cultural expectation, that lots of women have no choice; in my case it is a choice" line of argument.

Prolesworth, i think it was me that mentioned fresh first?

I wasnt trying to imply that to not wax/shave meant you werent fresh, if i thought that i wouldnt be bushey currently! just saying that i felt more comfortable in the summer ....anyway im repeating and rambling.

re sons opnions, i broached the subject with my teen earlier he said he thought a baldie would be a bit strange but did mention a 'triangle bush' as being 'quite cool' so he seems not to be influenced by porn at this point. unless that is hes been googling hairy p*y websites but i doubt it.

Oh, and dittany I am about what you said about your pubic hair thinning and dissappearing as you get old LIke a balding, ageing man!!
Pubes are a sign of virility then!

Sakura, all i can say is that it is my choice-sorry i appreciate your point but i think sometimes its just that simple.

I have given several personal reasons for sometimes removing hair, ive never worked in the porn/sex industry so its def not because of that, my partner is def not disgusted by me being hairy he loves me both hairy and non hairy so hes not influencing my choice either.

Back to the original point behind this, it does worry me how easily acesible porn is to young people with the internet now

got my cosmo yesterday and theres an offer for a brazilian wax for valentines day because 85% of men apparently prefer it.....

LOL Butterfly, so true. WHich teenager would NOT pick up a book entitled "PORNLAND"

amberleaf BUt you didn'T invent the practice of hair removal yourself. If you had, or had invented a new style, then I would buy the "choice" argument.

BUt it's some guy, some capitalist, who has invented the concept, the promotion, the marketing, indeed the beauty salons themselves are often owned by men, ( men are stakeholders in the big ones), and it is they who push the agenda of female hair removal. IT's not organic, it doesn't come from women. Women are merely reacting to the messages.