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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

The Catherine Hakim research

92 replies

LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 15:58

It is getting on my nerves the way this research is being reported.

The Telegraph

Daily Mail


you can get a summary of the study on this page, referenced here too

google books copy see page 9 for some outstanding patriarchal defence

All in all it seems to me that this bit of 'research' has been made to perpetuate the author's own patriarchal views, and hence provides valuable ammunition to the anti-feminists in the media.

I might be the first to provide a review on google books Wink

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LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 16:18
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DamselInDisgrace · 04/01/2011 16:23

Here is a great stance by an academic...

?Why are women less likely to achieve the top jobs and associated higher pay?? she trills, swiftly concluding that there?s no way of knowing and that we therefore needn?t worry ourselves about it.

The point of carrying out research would be to find ways of finding out why this is. That what, erm, researchers do.

lilcrumb · 04/01/2011 18:11

She delivers unpalatable truths. It is how the newspapers report it with their fundamentally patriarchal agenda, or with the viewpoint only of successful female columnists, the high earner highly professionally/careerist women, these are who we should have problems with. Surely? Hmm

LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 20:00

So you think it is true lilcrumb, that women want to do the unpaid labour and don't really want proper jobs ?

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moondog · 04/01/2011 20:02

I thoguht it very refreshing to read of it in the telegraph today.#
The truth hurts sometimes.

LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 20:07

Refreshing, really ?

Because a women states that all feminists are man haters and it is refreshing to hear that from another woman ?

Because women have a free choice when they have families to either pursue a career or look after children and most freely choose the unpaid labour? I have to say, that it certainly would be refreshing if it were true that women do have a free choice upon becoming mothers.

Shame it's not true

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moondog · 04/01/2011 20:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

singingcat · 04/01/2011 20:11

I think if you're looking at the readership of those papers, i.e. the middle classes, then a lot of women DO choose to stay at home with children etc. When I was at university I was surprised by the amount of girls who didn't especially want a high-flying career, but did want to marry someone rich. Of course they did go into careers, because it's unacceptable for middle class girls to just say 'Actually, I'm just going to marry someone rich' after all the effort that has been put into their education. But that was undoubtedly the aim.

The fact is, if you marry someone rich you can have the exact same lifestyle as them without having to do the mad City hours. It's perfectly socially acceptable to choose to be a SAHM to small children. Sounds like a win-win situation - unless your husband dies or becomes ill or, in the immortal words of scottishmummy, 'wallet runs off with a twinkie'

LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 20:18

or even "wallet runs off with a pelvic floor"

Yes, thanks moondog. You enjoy working for nowt in the local charity shop when your DCs have upped and left.

As the article above states: "Perhaps it needs to be spelled out: even women who gladly choose to stay at home with their children in the early years do not rejoice in the consequent financial penalties and lifelong hobbling of career choices"

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moondog · 04/01/2011 20:19

I wouldn't.
It's precisely the reason I work hard now.
Can't have it all kiddo.
That comes as a nasty shock to a lot of folk.

LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 20:27

You said the truth hurts. The truth being peddled about in this research and the subsequent reporting isn't the truth. What is your point?

"Can't have it all" - who can't ? Women, men or both?

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moondog · 04/01/2011 20:30

Ah, it's not your truth so it's untrue.
I see.....Hmm

LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 20:33

It is not true that women have a free choice to either pursue their career or look after their family. That is a rather fundamental prerequisite for this research. Are you disagreeing?

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moondog · 04/01/2011 20:34

Noone has a free choice to do anything! That's the way the world works whether you are black, white, male or female.

LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 20:36

righto. So lets forget about measures for homophobia, racism, disabilities - there's no point

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moondog · 04/01/2011 20:39

It would be nice to think that state intervention and rule making and special exemptions would make the world a more equal place but it won't. It just pisses people off.

Life is hard. It's your job to make of it what you will.
My dh works halfway aronud the world (without us) and has done for many years becasue that's where the work is.

That';s the way it is. Neither of us are crying into our orange juice about it.

LadyBlaBlah · 04/01/2011 21:03

Wow you are my hero

I couldn't disagree with you more. It only pisses off those who can't act like idiots anymore.

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StewieGriffinsMom · 04/01/2011 22:07

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tabouleh · 04/01/2011 22:17

moondog - I know you disagree with a lot of feminist points of view etc but really

"Oh belt up you miserable moo." Hmm

Have you had a bad day?

How about engaging with the thread/topic/explain what you think?

"My dh works halfway aronud the world (without us) and has done for many years becasue that's where the work is. That';s the way it is. Neither of us are crying into our orange juice about it."

You sure do mention that fact a lot on MN...

Lots in that that Telegraph article which is irrelevant to the research just some sort of attack on feminism. Hmm.

sakura · 04/01/2011 23:22

I'm guessing moondog is a repressed radical feminist. She is absolutely right that this is the best women can hope for under the current economic system

scottishmummy · 04/01/2011 23:49

well certainly interesting,and despite all the ho-ha not all immediately easily for some it is a truism and choice

some women do chose non employed stay home status.plenty enough precious moment mamas and id never leave my kids with strangers posts on mn

and for the vast majority of women, men are our colleagues,partners,brothers and enrich our lives.yes we are allies.we arent in combat

the positive of this is the exploration of the myriad of choices people make.that is interesting reading,no matter how unfathomable or palatable it may feel reading it

certainly i would never chose sahm role.i make my own money,am autonomous and love working. conversely other women wouldn't make my choices.

sakura · 05/01/2011 00:00

I "chose" to take care of my children myself, but let's be honest, as soon as a woman conceives a child, she begins losing out to men in the career stakes (not to her partner but to the men in the same field as her)
If I hadn't wanted children, I would not never have married let alone taken a break from a career for pregnancy, lactation, post-partum and childcare.

sakura · 05/01/2011 00:04

I'm thinking of me turning down a job the equivalent of DH's salary when I was pregnant because it was contract work that I wouldn't have been able to uphold because of the break I needed for childbirth. My "career" has taken a nosedive since then

scottishmummy · 05/01/2011 00:04

i worked ft after all my dc.have been competitively interviewed against male and female and promoted.Is not an automatic given that motherhood always equal demotion or career stall

I dont claim my experience to be representative but is my experience

sakura · 05/01/2011 00:12

I believe you, but it depends on the field. SOme fields are viciously anti-mother (academia springs to mind, where the most successful academics are family men, followed by childless women)
You are never going to know how many women didn't pass the interview, or were targeted for redundancy because they were pregnant at the time. Companies can always find a premise.

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