Burlesque is it grotesque?

[claig]

Very sad state of affairs, burlesque becoming mainstream

Burlesque it's just grotesque

That sounded snippier than I meant it to, sorry.

But it isn't

There's a much more interesting argument to be had re: alternative culture & porn, though, Dittany - the roots of that particular crossover are much more in punk, & shock (cf. Siouxsie) than in sexual titillation.

It's perhaps more that goths are actually rather accepting of non-conventional attractiveness - which is also a feature of burlesque - & leads to the two quite often sharing a stage.

Snippy's fine.

I just thought you'd accidentally hit post before you reached the bit of your post where you made a point.

I'm very sceptical of the message- "Hey! doesn't matter what size you are... you can be objectified too!" though.

It's just all so simple and trite, and offers not even an attempt of analysis of porn culture or sexuality, which a lot of the punk movement did in the way it challenged convention.

Some, not a lot. Some.

She's not a very good dancer dittany

So not actually too highly rated in the Burlesque scene, and she is very much the traditional stripper.

A higher rated Burlesque performer is someone like Sally Rand.

That argument doesn't really work though.

For example, every time I tell someone I like goth music they assume I like Marilyn Manson as they believe he epitomises what Goth is all about. Which he doesn't.

Just because Dita is the most known, doesn't mean she is the epitome of the scene.

I don't feel that someone whose act involves taking some of their clothes off is automatically any more objectified than someone who comes on after them & sings, though.

I daresay I objectified A-ha quite a bit, 25 years ago.

Look, I'm not a huge fan - I do seem to have seen a fair bit of it recently, though, on the same bills as my dh's band, & some of it I enjoyed. Some of it I think is rather cleverly done (there's a lass called Twiggy Starlust who does a good parody of androgynous male glam types...) - but I'd not pay to get into an evening's worth of it.

Is any sort of onstage nudity objectifying? Burlesque aside, the last time I saw any was a revival of the 'Romans in Britain'.

KalokiMallow wrote - "A higher rated Burlesque performer is someone like Sally Rand."

Sally Rand (1904-1979)
Gypsy Rose Lee (1914-1970)

These women were performing long before second wave feminism. Sexual objectification of women was not challenged in those days. It is depressing for a feminist to think that we are returning to such times.

So who are highly-rated current performers?

Actually, thinking about it, the origins of Burlesque are at least much less dodgy than the origins of something like the can-can! And the can-can doesn't have the same kind of reaction to it.

"Someone who is dead Kaloki can't be the epitome of "the scene"."

Mind you dittany, dead burlesque would be interesting... Being as how it's all encompassing and doesn't pander to mainstream ideals of beauty and all. Why should being dead be a barrier to empowerment through taking your clothes off? C'mon squares

Although I'm not sure how you'd stick the pasties on.

It won't be long before we are told that burlesque bunny girls are an art form.

I'd think twirling them would be more of a challenge than sticking them on...

Well you can be, because the majority aspire to be like them.

But current performers are people like Dirty Martini, Vicky Butterfly, Diva Hollywood etc.

I've never heard of them, but doubtless we'll be seeing them on X-Factor soon

My grandfather used to talk to me about Burlesque. For him there were two different types, Burlesque: Female entertainers, and "Chape Burlesque"(his words): nasty, cheap, tease acts, who would often go further for money.

I personally love the Burlesque art form. And their's is the art of stimulation (both mentally and physically). It's like comparing Geisha to street prostitution. It is about doing working and creating an act and taking pride in that work, as opposed to (literally) getting into men's pants as a way of getting into their wallets.

No - they're established acts. It's a world away from X-Factor.

Even I've heard of Dirty Martini!

& some of the dance routines on X-Factor, I would class as far more misogynistic & objectifying than anything you're likely to see performed as burlesque.

yes I meant that Christina Aguilera was on X-factor doing a performance to promote the film 'Burlesque'. Ofcom received lots of complaints about the performance. It wouldn't surprise me if the producers book Dirty Martini to appear on the show as well.
They may intend to work their way through the 'scene'.

Have you got an example on youtube of the type of burlesque that occurs at goth music events?