Do fairy tales have a lot to answer for?

[poshsinglemum]

Do they perpetuate the myth that all of us women need to be rescued? Or are they harmless fun?

I think one of the most disturbing elements of some fairy tales is that a swineherd, or some other random male, does a few heroic deeds and then gets to marry a princess and gets half a kingdom. Another passive woman just married off to whomever her father decides is worthy...

I think the sexism is in the recent (ie last 400 years) recording of them, rather than in the traditional stories themselves. Since publishing was essentially a man's world until the last century, yet traditional stories would have been an oral tradition if not dominated by women then certainly involving women, then the men chose to record the ones that worked best for them perhaps! Although I think the Grimm tales tend to have stronger heroines in many iirc.

yes it would be interesting to know who originated these fairy tales and myths, some of which are thousands of years old. I think fairy tales and myths were used to instruct the young and contain archetypes from deep within the human soul and subconscious, as Jung says. They are a fascinating subject. The damsel in distress theme is ever present, where the hero rescues the princess. It even stretches right back to the first work of European literature, the Iliad, where the Greeks go to Troy to rescue Helen.

Oh no - have we killed it?

This has been my favourite convo on here for a long time!

Resurgam!

Marina Warner has written several books on women in folklore, including 'From the Beast to the Blonde' which I enjoyed a lot. The first section covers those who told the tales, the second covers key tales.

Looking at my shelf of 'I'll read when I have time' books, I was given a copy of Jack Zipes 'Breaking the Magic Spell' which apparently covers radical theories of folk and folk tales.
But I won't know how good it is until Christmas.
I respect the giver's tastes though, so that bodes well.

Yes Marina Warner is excellent. I've got stacks and stacks of Jungian stuff on this. Marie Louise von Franz and tons of others. But, alas, I have only dipped into them. But some of the themes and archetypes go back to the beginning of human existence and are not easily logically decipherable, because they go to the heart of the unconscious and are not even conscious. But that is why they are so powerful and also universal, as Joseph Campbell shows in his books. They are often very profound and throw light on the human condition and spirit. I really ought to start reading a bit more about them, because they are spiritual.

Dire Straits' song 'Lady Writer'

'Lady Writer on the TV
talk about the Virgin Mary'

is about Marina Warner. Mark Knopfler had seen her on a TV programme talking about her book on the Virgin Mary.

Belligerentghoul yes, undoubtedly any stories that showed females as strong and capable were quietly shelved when it came to mass publishing.

I'm reading "THe Tale of Genji" which is not really a tale, but the first novel ever written, by Lady Murasaki, in the eleventh century.
It's interesting that it's all about how beautiful "Genji" is, how is face is described in teh delicate way that we usually ascribe to females. We never get to learn what the narrator looks like, whether she is beautiful or not- because it doesn't matter. This is her perspective, Genji is her muse.
Men can be forgiven for doing the same to women over the years, but they can't be forgiven for refusing to allow women access to education so they can continue to write their own literature

Most folk tales were oral for centuries though, so access to being functionally literate was not a problem.
You can shape the tale as you tell it, my evil characters are usually beautiful, my princesses often have black hair and brown eyes, I sometimes let the audience decide what will happen whilst I'm telling a tale, especially if they are children.
Looking at the difficulties women faced acquiring an education and then being allowed to use it freely is a different topic.

I didn't think Helen was, er, in distress. She was magicked away from her old husband to a hot young chap. Isn't there a lot in the Iliad about how loved up she was with Paris?

More "reclamation of property stolen" than "rescue of woman needing help" then.

or any old excuse for a dick-swinging war

goblinchild I am learning a lot from your posts I do think we can't underestimate the way women's tales have been trampled on, though. The oral tradition has been replaced by a myriad of technology. No reason at all why women can't reclaim it though.

I haven't read Homer, so I am not sure about the story.

But i have looked it up on wikipedia. According to wikipedia, Helen was the most beautiful woman in the world, and of her powerful Greek suitors, she chose Menelaus. Her father made all suitors promise to defend the marriage that she chose.

Zeus held a banguet for all the Gods and Goddesses, but didn't invite the Goddess of strife, because he didn't want any trouble. She was angry and threw a golden apple into the midst of the banquet with "Kallisti" written on it (which means "for the most beautiful"). The three most beautiful goddesses, Hera, Athena and Aphrodite argued over who should claim the apple. They asked Zeus to choose. He didn't want to choose, because it would upset the other two, so he said that Paris should choose. So the goddesses found Paris and bribed him to choose them. They offered him all different things, and Aphrodite offered him the love of the most beautiful woman in the world.

She was Helen, and she was married. He went to Greece and Aphrodite carried out her promise by getting Eros to shoot Helen with an arrow, so that she fell in love with Paris, and they eloped.

Her father then called on the suitors to honour their oath, and the Trojan war started.

It all then gets more complicated, and I will have to find time to read the lot, but first I have to read my council tax bill.

Have just read the council tax bill, and am now off to pour myself a stiff drink.

thanks claig

apart from the bit about the council tax

yes taxes are a depressing subject. If only they were myths and fairy tales, the world would be a happier place.

I have just been directed to this excellent thread :)

There's loads of evidence that, in the oral tradition, women would tell one another bawdy tales taking the piss out of men and vice versa. But then Perrault and in particular the Grimms came along, wrote them down, bowdlerised them and made them into morality tales. And Disney arguably did as much damage by removing any trace of psychological relevance.

There are lots of versions which are brilliant though. I particularly like the version of Little Red Riding Hood where she tells the wolf she needs to go out for a shit and escapes that way :)

I've used that one a few times myself in fending off unwelcome advances

That doesn't surprise me one bit Unruly - if MN is anything to go by (and it is, of course) then women love nothing more than lots of jokes about periods, shagging and stupidity.

Like to think our foremothers were the same. Hard to imagine them all telling their kids stories about evil stepmothers somehow. Unless it was to make them appreciate their less-murderous birth mothers?