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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do fairy tales have a lot to answer for?

148 replies

poshsinglemum · 02/12/2010 22:19

Do they perpetuate the myth that all of us women need to be rescued? Or are they harmless fun?

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 03/12/2010 19:23

HCA was a bit of a sicko IME - his fairy tales are high on psychological torture, and low on good old fashioned gore (grimm etc).

Scottish fairy tales are good, in fact most Celtic countries have good ones: Irish and Cornish are great. Not read many Welsh ones.

Goblinchild · 03/12/2010 19:23

Tanith Lee, Women as Demons is a fantastic adult collection, reworking fairy tales and inmagery.

HerBeatitude · 03/12/2010 19:26

I remember having a Virago book of fairytales but can't find it...

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 03/12/2010 19:27

Well, if spinning was something unmarried women did (prior to having their own home/kids to care for, presumably), then it makes sense that the girls have to pass through this stage of their life in order to move onto being a wife, I suppose. I'd like to recommend to everyone. Xmas Grin Not particularly relevant to feminism, but apt for topic of spinning.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 03/12/2010 19:28

and the king reminds me of David Cameron...

Goblinchild · 03/12/2010 19:28

There are two Virago books of fairy tales, both edited by the late, great Angela Carter.
Anyone thought of Labyrinth as a modern fairy tale with a strong heroine?

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 03/12/2010 19:29

HerB - I've got one of those (there are two vols I think).

Some of the stories are very not suitable for kids though, unless you want them reading about Inuit girls masturbating with a man made of blubber... Xmas Grin

BelligerentGhoul · 03/12/2010 19:30

The Virago book has some great ones in - and some very strange ones. Check out some of the extremely odd Icelandic ones iirc.

Great anti-fairy-tale poem here. LOVE this.

Goblinchild · 03/12/2010 19:31

Inuit tales are some of the rudest ever. Grin

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 03/12/2010 19:34

aaahhhhhhhhh I lurve U A Fanthorpe :(

The fairy tales kind of got "poshed up" (gosh I'm articulate) in the middle ages IIRC, when "romance" became a popular genre. Actually thinking about it, a lot of this dragon/rescuing princess stuff is Arthurian, rather than proper fairy tale, isn't it?

Goblinchild · 03/12/2010 19:36

Do you know this version of the frog prince?
www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchive/singlePoem.do?poemId=7090
Hope the link works.

BelligerentGhoul · 03/12/2010 19:38

Well a lot of them began in classic lit anyway I think. Pretty sure the Greeks had a version of Cinderella way back when.

Then Perrault was responsible for prettifying a lot of them.

JingleBelleDameSansMerci · 03/12/2010 19:43

Goblinchild - wow, that was quick work! Thank you.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 03/12/2010 19:45

Slightly OT but there is a great book on medieval romance called English Romance In Time, although written by an academic is very readable. Lovely if only for the opening line: "Early in the 1590s, the Queen's Men acquired a bearsuit."

Prettifying - Belligerent don't get me started on the prettifying of fairies.

When did this happen? They used to be objects of fear, not objects of sexed up disney lunchboxes!

JingleBelleDameSansMerci · 03/12/2010 19:47

Every time I get onto a thread with you, E&M, I buy a new book Xmas Grin

sethstarkaddersmum · 03/12/2010 19:51

Elephants, please get started on the prettifying of fairies. I for one would like to hear all about it.
I have discussing it with dd in the context of Tinkerbell in Peter Pan not being very nice to Wendy.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 03/12/2010 19:51

Xmas Grin sorry BelleDame.

Goblinchild (wonderful fairytale name there) my MN name is a Stevie Smith one. She is great.

BelligerentGhoul · 03/12/2010 19:53

V good novel about non-pretty fairies here :)

Goblinchild · 03/12/2010 19:56

You need Nanny Ogg on fairies and elves
?people didn't seem to be able to remember what it was like with the elves around. Life was certainly more interesting then, but usually because it was shorter. And it was more colourful, if you liked the colour of blood. It got so people didn't even dare talk openly about the bastards.
You said: The Shining Ones. You said: The Fair Folk. And you spat, and touched iron. But generations later, you forgot about the spitting and the iron, and you forgot why you used those names for them, and you remembered only that they were beautiful.
Yes, there'd been a lot of witches in those days. Too many women found an empty cradle, or a husband that never came home from the hunt. Had been the hunt.
Elves! The bastards?and yet?and yet?somehow, yes, they did things to memory.

"One day." Nanny nodded. "Yes. I'll drink to that. One day. Who knows? One day. Everyone needs 'one day.' But it ain't today. D'you see? So you come on out and balance things up. Otherwise, this is what I'll do. I'll get 'em to dig into the Long Man with iron shovels, y'see, and they'll say, why, it's just an old earthworks, and pensioned-off wizards and priests with nothin' better to do will pick over the heaps and write dull old books about burial traditions and suchlike, and that'll be another iron nail in your coffin. And I'll be a little bit sorry about that, 'cos you know I've always had a soft spot for you. But I've got kiddies, y'see, and they don't hide under the stairs because they're frit of the thunder, and they don't put milk out for the elves, and they don't hurry home because of the night, and before we go back to them dark old ways I'll see you nailed."

Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder.
Elves are marvellous. They cause marvels.
Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies.
Elves are glamorous. They project glamour.
Elves are enchanting. They weave enchantment.
Elves are terrific. They beget terror.
The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
No one ever said elves are nice.
Elves are bad.
?we remember the elves for their beauty and the way they move, and forget what they were. We're like mice saying, "Say what you like, cats have got real style."
?
We only remembers that the elves sang. We forgets what it was they were singing about.

JingleBelleDameSansMerci · 03/12/2010 19:58

Oh I love Nanny Ogg... I wish I were Tiffany though

Goblinchild · 03/12/2010 20:00

I'm gradually evolving into her. I've always been like that on the inside, but now my outside is catching up.
She's my favourite character, but there are so many fantastic ones in Discworld.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 03/12/2010 20:01

Which book is that from, Goblin?

That one sounds good, Belligerent.

It's true about fairies - the name I mean. the Fair Folk. Does anyone ever mention their real name? Or know it?

JingleBelleDameSansMerci · 03/12/2010 20:02

Erm, my namesake is more typical of a "real" fairy/faery - here.

BelligerentGhoul · 03/12/2010 20:02

Now if we're getting on to TP, I'm sorry but nobody can beat good old Captain Carrot.

Goblinchild · 03/12/2010 20:03

The book? Lords and Ladies.
I love Tiffany too, living in the High Weald as I do, a chalk witch is irresistible.
My family is also Scots.

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