Anti Feminist Bingo!!

[TheFeministParent]

Elephants had this idea!!

So I'll start

"we're not a homogeneous mass..."
"I don't like to be too narrow..."

great point harpy

Oh, I don't know, I think I would describe myself as anti-war, anti-violence, in fact anti quite a lot of things.

People do use 'non-feminist', but for me, it is a different thing to anti-feminist.

I prefer to talk in terms of opinions or arguments, and describe something said as an anti-feminist view rather than call a person an anti-feminist.

If people say things like 'feminists are anti-men' or 'women (as a group) are not oppressed', they are expressing anti-feminist views.

I don't see why it would upset them to have those views identified as anti-feminist - they have a clear position against feminism, they have presumably engaged their brains and thought their views through - own it, I say.

Anti-feminist is different from Non-feminist, that's why people use them differently.

A non-feminist is simply someone who doesn't have a feminist consciousness and doesn't identify with feminism, but s/he is not necessarily anti the basic ideas.

An anti-feminist is someone who really dislikes the ideas of feminism and tries to counter them whenever they come across them.

Hence people calling you an anti feminist TSH. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a fucking duck...

non-feminist is someone who's not bothered, one way or another, what feminists do and what they get up to

anti-feminists are quite a different kettle of fish altogether

Anybody who expresses views supporting the (gender) status quo or supporting a patriarchal system is expressing anti-feminist views really.

Feminism is for equal rights and liberation for women - anything that goes against that is anti-feminist. I find suggestions that feminism is anti men tedious and loaded with patriarchal values - as though the feminist movement must be identified with regards to its position to men rather than the women the movement is concerned with. Very blinkered and arrogant.

I struggle with the concept of non-feminist because I see this in a 'you're either for us or against us' kind of way.

But then, I'm the sort of person who doesn't understand why anybody wouldn't support a movement concerned with equality for half the population.

i can fully see why it is annoying to be called an anti-feminist, or have your comments labelled as such, when you know yourself to be a feminist. I'm sure that happens a lot on MN, feminists argue just like anyone else and there is a variety of views.

What I don't understand, is why people, including some of those on this thread, who aren't feminists, or even oppose feminism, find the phrase "anti-feminist" perjorative . It's just accurate, surely? Like, if I though breastfeeding was gross and a waste of time for mothers (disclaimer: I don't actually), calling me "anti-breastfeeding" would hardly be perjorative, would it. More truthful.

So if you are not a feminist, and find feminism either deeply problematic or just plain wrong, why is being called "anti-feminist" a problem for you?

I think it's quite a useful term, but probably only if you're quite used to discussing politics.

I've just remembered "anti-communist" as a term. It wasn't an insult as such (it was used in a "that POV is anti-communist Comrade" way and then the speaker would go on to say why that POV is anti-communist in the context of what communism is about and striving for and why whatever it was that s/he considered anti-communist undermined the goals of communism) it was a useful shortcut to get across the idea that the view the speaker was expounding, was dangerously undermining of those goals, possibly unwittingly, while looking like a reasonable proposition.

Proabably a really bad comparison, but does it help explain what people mean when they use the term anti-feminism?

I agree elephants, why are people so offended at being labelled anti-feminist?
Maybe it means the coin has flipped! Maybe feminists are now the status quo, and anti-feminists are the marginalised group

Maybe, Sakura :o

Actually HerB I don't really like the labelling in the way you describe it. I tend to stick to calling people antifeminist only if they are totally overt antifeminists (so, MRAs, tellers of stupid sexist jokes about feminists etc). I do find the labelling of things as "antifeminist" unhelpful in general. It kind of reminds me of various things being labelled "unAmerican or "anti-American".

so what is the different between an anti feminist and a non feminist.

i hadn't heard the term non feminist before

whilst i understand the basis of feminism, i believe in a different ideology of equality. so whilst i believe that there are lots of inequalities in the world, i agree what women suffer inequality along with lots of others. i guess the key is i believe that this inequality isn't gender based but Political, Power and monetary.

so i couldn't say that i think that the fight feminists are fighting is wrong, as i couldn't say that any other marginalised group fighting for equality is wrong, i guess i would say that i believe the root to be something other than gender based.

therefore would/should i term myself as a non feminist? there have been a couple of definitions. i certainly wouldn't want to be classed with those who don't care about feminism either way, becuse i do think it is a valid ideological standpoint, i just don't agree.

so, custardo, what do you make of the fact that there is a correlation between porn and rape? The porn industry is massive and it's gender based: women are violated against and those who have the power are men. Men are making huge profits from the abuse of women. It's power, it's money, but male power can only exist on the backs of female subordination.

Then you get the knock on effects of the porn industry: the commodification of female bodies, the rape.
The plastic surgery: another indistry making money off women. The cosmetic surgeons: labioplasty.
There comes a point when you have to accept that it's not just rich against poor, it's men against women.

ignore my post. i don't require an answer, thinking about this away from teh thread, i decided that my views do not need to be labled depending on where they are in relation to feminism

you know, I agree with your last post. I just have views, I just "shoot the shit" as sprogger called it. I continue to be flabbergasted when people talk about "those feminists" and I wonder who they're talking about, and I realise I've got the odd feminist view, and maybe they're talking about me, but I'm not sure...because I still don'T identify as feminist, certainly not IRL.
There are certain times when the label is necessary, though. but you don't have to call yourself a feminist, or feel feminist to have feminist views.
And telling people that feminism- as a movement- doesn't need to exist is a flawed argument, an anti-feminist argument, if you like.

Custy - I think I would call you a non-feminist, if I was calling people things. You don't perceive there to be a pattern of women being consistently (not universally, but a bloody good pattern) worse off in all kinds of ways than men from a similar place/background etc. But at the same time you don't slag off feminism or feminists particularly AFAIK, or tell us we are all deluded or wasting our time, or that men are just plain better than women etc etc.

Shrieking - I don't think that its use is intended to provoke anger in the recipient of the term. If calling something what it is (for the sake of argument, I'm imagining it being used in clear response to one of those "cor you feminists are just deluded and a bunch of castrating cows" type comments) causes anger, then - so be it. I don't think it's the job of feminists to tiptoe round the possible angry feelings of people who are criticising them. The point of the term is not to cause anger. It's to point out to the "recipient" or to others listening that those comments are against feminists/feminism as a whole. Like I've said, I hesitate to use the term myself but do understand why others do. Trying to make out that feminists shouldn't use it, because people accused of it might get angry, just seems absurd. Not that it's a perfect example (and it's not a comparison) but should we not call people using racist language, racist? Because they might get upset or angry? The fact that they might get upset and angry, doesn't mean that was the point of labelling them thus .

some people came on this thread saying Anti-feminism is an attack on god knows who, but if you identify as an anti-feminist, you should own it, as HB says. WHy would you be angry that someone was calling you something that you wanted to be, that you chose to be??
If you're not an anti-feminist, then again, you still have no reason to be annoyed at this thread title, because we weren't talking about you!!!

I think sometimes people get annoyed when they self identify as supportive of feminism, and then are told a view they hold is anti-feminist.

A bit like how someone repeating a rape myth will probably be upset at the idea that they are a rape apologist.

However I do think these things need to be said.

I remember once, ages ago, being a bit cross with dittany because she pointed out that something I had said was a rape myth. At first I thought she was being a bit extreme/had misunderstood me because how could I a feminist woman be 'supporting' rape in any way!!

Then, when I thought things through, and made a bigger effort to rid myself of my patriarchy blinkers, I saw that what dittany was saying was right.

Feminists have to say these sorts of things because no-one else will on women's behalf. Too bad if people don't like having it pointed out to them that their (commonly held) views are misogynistic/patriarchy influenced.

Yes, I don't agree with dittany on everything, but it is irritating how often she turns out to be right :o

beachcomber, you did that to me on a porn thread once! swept my blinkers right off

Yes I don't believe it's used to make someone angry. It is used to describe their arguments.

I think people take it personally and perceive it as a pejortive term, it's because they're uncomfortable about their arguments being labelled with the right name; I don't think that the lable "anti-feminist" is chucked around ehre willy nilly, I think it is used when anti-feminist arguments are used.

I've said it before and I'll say it again : if you don't want your argument to be labelled anti-feminist, don't use anti-feminist arguments.

Although i do take the point that one shouldn't label a person anti-feminist, with the odd exception. People putting forward anti feminist arguments aren't necessarily anti feminist people.

Gosh really Sakura?

Dittany is very good at detecting and naming patriarchy bullshit.

HB, I agree with your above post. All too often people get all offended/'put off feminism'/on their high-horse, when it is pointed out that their views are anti-feminist.

I can understand that it is an uncomfortable feeling if you consider yourself to be a feminist. Most of us have said/thought similar things at some point and then learnt that we were parroting the patriarchy in reality.

Being a feminist is quite a learning curve and it is really hard to keep the blinkers off at all times on everything.

I sometimes wonder why people are so sensitive to having their views called out. I suspect deep seated fear of having to do really step over to the other side. Once you start seeing, you can't stop and all that.

I tend to feel a bit sad, when a woman who has had it pointed out to her that her view is blinkered/patriarchy influenced/anti-feminist, gets the hump and says that we are only saying that because we cannot tolerate being disagreed with.

'No, sister, it's because what you just said isn't compatible with the view that female oppression is wrong.'