Is it non-feminist to wear make-up?

[jinglesticks]

My dad told me off for wearing make-up claiming it was wrong on feminist grounds,and I can kind of see what he means, but I don't want to because I like wearing make-up. It does uphold the notion that women are meant to be pretty and decorated for men. Plus it's an inequality in that men don't feel they have to wear make-up and spend time making themselves look better in this way, whereas women do. Also the cosmetic industry promotes feelings of inadequacy in women, because we don't all have perfect skin etc. I can also see why someone like my dad who helped fight sexism in the sixties only to be faced with the ridiculous post-feminism of the spice-girls encouraging us to celebrate our femininity via the means of fake eyelashes and knee-high boots would be annoyed at me wearing make-up.

So what do you think? I like to think that I wear make-up in a quirky, colourful way, expressing individuality rather than trying to look like a model. Am I just kidding myself?

'make the most of herself' ?

i don't understand. if she is happy, and wants to go out without make-up, why are you encouraging her (forcing her?) to conform with her peer group? are you not teaching her that she is an individual, and can make those decisions herself?

do you think that encouraging her to wear make up when she is dealing with skin break outs could be undermining her confidence? even worsening the breakouts>

Looking at a woman with appreciation is harassment? Even if the female in question enjoys and encourages the attention?

Men have worn make-up and wigs in the past, presume that was a social status indicator.

Dilated pupils make the eyes look darker, also mimic a woman in a heightened sexual state. Perhaps that is the pyschology behind it.

I agree that lewd comments, touching or gestures would constitute harassment.
But looking with appreciation at a woman dressed to attract?
It's her choice to present herself how she chooses, and to attract attention for her appearance.

I do wear a small amount of make-up because I have bad skin but do see it as problematic - like dying my hair etc because it encourages the women around me and my daughter presumably to do the same.

It becomes the norm of what women look like and do - just as all the Hollywood actresses over a certain age now look the same because of their in-group plastic surgery fixation.

I dont know how to square these things however - my own desire to wear a small amount of it and yet my feeling that actually its not helpful.

Madwoman, Oh come on, I don't force her if she really didn't want to she wouldn't, she is just questioning it atm and may decide she wants to be natural. Don't know if you have a teen DD but mums are there to give a bit of advice.

I find light foundation doesn't harm your skin and can dry up mild breakout.

Dittany - eg, law, English, MML, History - where much of what you do is persuade someone else of your point of view. (I reckon you did have at least some of these at your university!!)

What I'm getting at is that there is somewhere in between sexual harassment and completely not noticing what the other person looks like. And that most people probably do fall somewhere in the middle ground (apart from DP who is too busy thinking higher thoughts, obviously!) And I do think it's interesting to ponder how much of someone's perceived skills at "communicating" or "charming" is to do with ticking (even subconscious) "attractiveness" boxes. And how much we can even do about that even if we knew for sure.

Groping would involve touching, wouldn't it Dittany?

witches - lol, see my post above - was going to ask if your dd wanted to come to the mall with me tomorrow...

i'm just a bit shocked that you would be encouraging her to wear it, when she had said she didn't want to... dd1 is just at the stage where she wants to wear a bit of make-up to a party, but only because her friends do. it's fine - i understand peer pressure, but i'm encouraging her to think about why she's doing it. not stopping her, just she knows it's a choice. i'm just a bit curious why your default position is 'wear it' when she is at the wondering stage.

that's just telling her it's the right and expected thing to do surely? not something that's a choice?

I've been a lesbian feminist for over a quarter century and I always wear full make-up. And have long hair. And I could mount a whole defence of that, but it's more honest to acknowledge that at least part of it (alongside actually enjoying applying it and wearing it) is because of the immense social benefits I get from looking like a conventional woman, and a conventionally attractive woman, which mitigates in part the social cost I pay for being an out lesbian.

Now I'm middle-aged, what I'm getting is to fit in with the other mothers at the schoolgate. I look like them and I mix well with them, which is important to me and I feel will help my daughters. At work, I get to be seen first and foremost as a professional, not as the office lesbian. When I was younger, and cuter, I got loads of attention and appreciation as, basically, the hot girl who nobody expected to be gay, but was. Which was like balm to the soul, as throughout childhood and adolescence I'd felt unattractive, unpopular, the 'wierd girl' who didn't fit in and didn't dare to be open about who I was.

I'm not defending any of this, just acknowledging it. I have always been full of admiration for women who are brave enough to defy social convention in their physical appearance, particularly butch dykes. I suppose this is my mitigation: wearing make-up is these days an unimportant part of my life. I'm happy to be seen without it. I don't judge others on whether they wear it or not. I think that, across the board, I work hard to contribute towards social change, and what I do in the world is more important than what I do to myself.

And I do really, really love make-up.

Madwoman, I know what your are saying and have just asked her and she laughed and said she knows she has a choice. To me it's normal to wear make-up on a night out. It's certainly not anti-feminist.

sticky - that goes right back to my earlier dilemma. it's not even about how provocative you are really - it's about what's expected in any given situation.

when women dress provocatively for men in a business scenario, i worry that it is both normalising and demeaning from a male pov. it is a choice, but i do worry that it then becomes less of a choice, and more of a political standpoint for other women. ie to have to choose not to conform in that manner.

whereas me, i just have to choose whether to find jewellery and a swishy scarf, and big up my hair, in order to conform. oh, and match my nail polish to my outfit. (the horror of having something that could be described as an 'outfit'...)

i would never tell a woman she shouldn't 'flaunt it', but i would remind a man that it is her choice and nothing to do with him at all. in power relationships like colleges/ work, it's a total stereotype - male tutor sleeps with sexy young thang, boss shags secretary. i don't know why i bother to worry about it tbh - it's been the status quo forever.

hester, i think i love you, and i'm a non make-up wearing hetero.

witches i'll cross her name off the mall trip

It's not that odd Dittany, I've been living with an academic these last 17 years - we know what we're talking about! And it depends on your university - at mine we spent a lot of time having to defend our theses in small groups. And my job is just the same, lots of negotiation. So I am really interested in what makes someone a good persuader/communicator.

You seem determined to jump to one end of the spectrum or the other. I just pointed out that there is somewhere in between leering and not noticing. Never mind!

i got a first in english, and can safely say i wore no make up at all to uni. ever.

but i did get called maggie thatcher a lot, which i don't think was meant to be a compliment...

Surely the point of feminism is to gain equality for women. To my mind this means having the right to do anything you bloody well like (within the law and your own moral code). So if you like wearing make-up and high heels, wear them. Don't let what some man says cloud your judgement - even if he is your dad. Your body, your choice. You don't have to look like a man to be his equal.

I personally think men look better clean-shaven rather than with beards. Ditto women.

Madwoman, I love you too

i pulled a chin hair out this morning.

and mused on what would have happened if i hadn't.

dh shaves every day. he has to for work.

i'd like men to be able (and to be encouraged) to wear make up every day, multi coloured. contour their cheeks with blush. mascara, (preferably lengthening and millionising) and whiten their teeth. please.

then i'll have a go.

tis one of the reasons i admire eddie izzard.

madwoman that would be disturbing all right! Did you wear no make up but big up your hair a leetle too much..?

I'm not saying that you "have to" wear make up, btw, I often don't, but I am interested in how I and anyone else is perceived with and without it, and whether if you are "ugly" you will always be at a disadvantage in any situation where you are trying to bring someone else round to your way of thinking. I suspect it might be the case, in which case, although I object to the 15% remark, it is just the way life is. We reproduce and therefore we are.

oh come on they both do. Both are being dehumanizing in their attitudes.