Is it non-feminist to wear make-up?

[jinglesticks]

My dad told me off for wearing make-up claiming it was wrong on feminist grounds,and I can kind of see what he means, but I don't want to because I like wearing make-up. It does uphold the notion that women are meant to be pretty and decorated for men. Plus it's an inequality in that men don't feel they have to wear make-up and spend time making themselves look better in this way, whereas women do. Also the cosmetic industry promotes feelings of inadequacy in women, because we don't all have perfect skin etc. I can also see why someone like my dad who helped fight sexism in the sixties only to be faced with the ridiculous post-feminism of the spice-girls encouraging us to celebrate our femininity via the means of fake eyelashes and knee-high boots would be annoyed at me wearing make-up.

So what do you think? I like to think that I wear make-up in a quirky, colourful way, expressing individuality rather than trying to look like a model. Am I just kidding myself?

madwoman - if I knew where to buy cotton sacks I would probably be seen in one from time to time. While I was typing I was thinking - they sound comfy. Perhaps in a pinstripe I could get away with it?!

tbh, if I do a good job in a cotton sack, then I think the client's happier than if I do a shit job done up to the nines. Probably I come out somewhere in the middle on both counts!

I do find it almost anti feminist, too, where some of my older and more militantly no-make-up-always-trouser-suited colleagues are REALLY anti the younger ones in short skirts, tight tops and lots of make-up. Should they not have the right to "flaunt it" if they want to (if they can bear the older male partners dribbling on them, that is. Eeuw!)

Don't worry - my nails are not pretty - they are black and chipped right now (party last night).

Clean, short, unpainted but well-groomed nails are better than talons (and I expect clean short well-groomed nails on men too, that's definitely an instance where women have more choices but no more expectations).

and on the other side, early in our relationship I remember going out with dp and for once wearing make-up. He hadn't commented so I said "oy, do you like the make-up, I made an effort! Appreciate!" and he said "do you honestly expect me to notice that your eyelashes had slightly changed colour?"

I realised then he wasn't especially interested in going out with a dolly bird. Thank god for men like him, I can forget the "girls should make the most of themselves" types most of the time!

sticky - i wore tinted lip salve once (not even gloss, flipping burt's bees that i hadn't realised was tinted when i bought it) and dh peered at me anxiously and said 'what are you all dolled up for?' as though he'd forgotten we had a Very Important Date.

it's not like i frighten small children on a regular basis...

Dittany, I see your point, but I think outlawing men looking appreciatively at a pretty young thing is going to be a tricky one to enforce (and not even one that all women would want enforced, unreconstructed reactionaries that some are ). And I do think the trouser suits can be more malicious than the dribblers, so I worry about them equally!

madwoman - you tart!!

dittany - have you got any decent links that i can use to 'inform' young teens about the choices they make wrt clothes etc? ideally i'm looking for something young and funky and not sounding like their mother.

they aren't actually buying - it's an exercise in fashion/ media/ self-awareness type thing...

I know I must be being incredibly thick, but could someone please explain to me in what way women wear make-up for men? Especially given that I have personally never come across a man who cared or even seemed to notice whether a woman is wearing any or not?

Don't women wear it to please themselves?

[naive emoticon]

I wear make-up most days because I look better with it on when I look at myself in the mirror. I don't consider that I wear it to look decorative for men.

I also like the company of men when it suits me so not sure if I am even a feminist.

Reckon DD is, at 16 she asks me why she should have to wear make-up and wants to go out without it. I tell her to put some on if she is going out, her skin is prone to breakouts.

hmmm..personally I rarely wear full make-up..I wear lip-gloss and sometimes eye-liner when I'm in the mood.. actually I don't think I've ever worn a full-face in my entire life apart from my wedding day ..I think its an option if a woman wants to she should and I would not judge her for it...

lol witches - do feminists not like men then?
i'll let dh know immediately.

but omg, your child is asking if she has to wear make-up, and you are telling her yes, to hide her breakouts, even though she wants to go out without it?

way to build her confidence.

please tell me you are joking on both counts?

Also, could it not be argued that women have greater freedom in this matter than men? What I mean is that most men would not dream of wearing make up because of expectations of masculinity.

A woman can choose not to wear make up and will be able to go about her normal daily life without it being commented on (mostly). A man can choose to wear make up but he is highly likely to be the subject of ridicule from his colleagues, friends, family and probably strangers too. So most men don't really get to choose.

Perhaps men are losing out more than women (in terms of choice) on this issue.

Sticky it's the older male partners sexually harassing the young women you should be worried about you know, not the women in trouser suits.

I'd rather young women wore what they wanted to and were confident about dealing with unwanted attention.
Women can be very critical and harassing of other women and their appearance in my experience. Far more distressing and intrusive to me.

dittany - like the look of gender ads, but more for me, lol

i think i'm looking for the next age group up from pinkstinks - these are girls who are just about to be hit by enormous pressure to appear older than are (12-14) and all the lifestyle stuff that goes with that pressure... so trying to negotiate the bit between child and woman without heading straight for the wonder bra.

I remember a Pyschology lecturer telling me the apparent psychology behind women wearing make-up.

Younger people have big eyes, fuller lips, pink cheeks and fresh skin. Young = healthy, fertile. As in good mating stock Older people tend to have thinner lips, their eyes appear smaller, and their skin appears 'tired'. Therefore, less health, fertile, less likely to bear a child. So therefore, the act of wearing mascara (to make eyes look bigger), lipstick (to make lips look bigger), foundation (to make skin look smoother), and blusher (to make cheeks look more healthy) all originate from men seeking a good mate. And women wanting to appear a good, healthy mate. All in the sub-conscious, obviously.

Although, I wear make-up every day; it makes me feel more confident.

the big zing - that's really the point - it's about pressure to conform to notions of femininity or masculinity.

No I'm not joking, if she is going out with her peers and they are all dolled up I do encourage her to make the most of herself, don't see anything wrong with that. It's only recently she has questioned wearing make-up, although she has never been very interested in fashion. If she does want to reject the wearing of make-up etc I am sure she will and I will respect that.

I wouldn't consider myself a true feminist in the 1960's sense of rejecting men and not wearing make-up/shaving armpits etc, although they did have an influence on me, growing up. I do live my life as a single woman but enjoy male company.

I consider myself a feminist and wear makeup every day. What does freak me out a bit is that some men I know think women who wear makeup are cheap and it should be discouraged. It's like a control thing. If their wife wears makeup she will become more attractive to other men.

and who is setting the bar wrt to what is 'allowed'.

there is an idea that men are not allowed to wear make-up (by other men) because it diminishes their power/ masculinity by making them more feminine. feminine being 'less than' rather than 'equal to' masculine, obv. diminishing male power not encouraged.

dittany - looking is not sexual harassment. Boys are being boys as much as girls are being girls. I didn't like the 15% comment, but had already noticed at university that there was a much higher percentage of pretty girls in the communication subjects than in the non-communication subjects. Are pretty girls better at communicating because they have more confidence? Are their interlocutors (male or female) more likely to perceive them as better communicators because they register as "nice to look at as well as to talk to", even subconsciously? Were they just picked by dirty old male admissions tutors (btw, my admissions tutor and my director of studies were both female, so hopefully brains had something to do with it!).

The whole looks/make up thing is quite complicated as to what you are buying into.

And TheBigZing - quite. But it's like the "going to the ball" thing - easier just to choose a tux, rather than a ball dress.

Do the girls see it as sexual harassment, or do they see it as empowering, flaunting what they are?
With sad old men dribbling over the unattainable?