Discussion on Woman's Hour NOW about raunch culture, objectification of women etc.

[HerBeatitude]

Just thought I'd let you all know...

Oh I don't think any of that lot even pretend to be marxists any more do they?

So how do they go from marxism to "Living Marxism" whatever that is, to total twattery?

yes the neocons nearly all come from a left wing Trotskyite background, or had parents who were. That's why they are called neocons, they are new to the cause of conservativism. Christopher Hitchens is an ex-Trotskyite. His brother, Peter Hitchens, was also a Trotskyite in his youth.

So weird. Are they all incredibly privileged and originally rebelled against parental riches but later sank back into it? That seems to happen a lot.

Or do they not really believe in conservativism, but just use it to achieve their original objectives? Conservativism isn't really based on a utopian goal.

I don't think neoconservatives really are conservatives. I think they are arrivistes, who come from a leftist background. I'm not sure of the exact definition of neoliberals.

Agree with Dittany, neocon and neolib are the same.

I think neocons are in the context of conservatives, so they are a new version of conservatism taking in neoliberalism. I use the terms interchangably (and I have cause to use the terms pretty often)

I seen an oxymoron in being a neocon though, as conservatism is about tradition not being new. I'd put it down to conservatives needing to make the link when their ideology changed.

Never heard of neolibs being ex Trotskyites though! Is this the driving force ones or all? Were Thatcher and Regan secret Trotskyites for example??

Interesting stuff dittany and AliceWorld. I don't think Thatcher and Reagan were neocons, but Thatcher in particular was a new kind of conservative. When did the term neocon really come into use? I think of it as the people surrounding Bush, but maybe it was used before that period?

That would make sense actually Prolesworth re the market/moral thing. There was a contradiction in Thatcherism of rolling back the state marketwise, but strong state moralwise.

I'm pretty sure Thatcher and Regan were necons. I was being taught that in the '90s I'm pretty sure. Can check in books later though as sometimes you misremember things and then perpetuate them in your own mind. Would be surprised it I was wrong on this though (and gutted)

I hadn't heard Thatcher described as a neoconservative before, but she may well have been, because many of her ideas were influenced by American thinkers and economists such as Milton Friedman. I am not sure if he is a neoconservative.

Looked up the wikipedia definition of neoconservatism and Thatcher doesn't get a mention.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

I know that Leo Strauss influenced many of the neocons who advised Bush, and most of these neocons have a Trotskyite or Marxist background (plus ca change)

"In being a kind of secretive elitist approach, Straussianism does resemble Marxism. These ex-Marxists, or in some cases ex-liberal Straussians, could see themselves as a kind of Leninist group, you know, who have this covert vision which they want to use to effect change in history, while concealing parts of it from people incapable of understanding it."