Language and Misogyny

[alexpolismum]

I have been thinking a lot about how language is used to express things implicitly or just to add a hint, a nuance, without explicitly saying something.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that misogyny is often expressed in this way. For example, saying "a nagging wife" or a "hysterical girl" etc.

This has also got me thinking about other points of language. Does it matter if we say for example 'actress' or should actor be used for both?

(I should perhaps mention that I am a professional translator, so I think carefully about the right choice of word all the time.)

Ooh, this has brought me on to another point. Do you think it belittles women to refer to them as 'girls' as adults, while males of the same age range are referred to as 'men'?

deathstare, you saying draftswoman because you are isn't going to perpetuate any outdated preconceptions though. A lot of people still assume a doctor/dentist/solicitor is going to be a man. So in that way, using person instead of man does force people to just open their eyes and see who is doing the job. NOt feel surprise when it turns out to be a woman when they were expecting a man.

Exactly, EvilAnts. And the other day there was a programme on discussing the best way to refer to a female MP as they didn't want to use the normal word, as it is used for men...

Greek acquaintances tell me that this is a good thing, that we need to be able to instantly tell gender. These, strangely, are male acquaintances...

Interesting article here on why the male default excludes women if anyone's interested.

What was wrong with member of parliament or politician to describe a politician (who happens to be female).

Unless we say male politician why do we need to insert female into the job title of a female person doing the same job??

Seriously Alex? that just goes to show doesn't it.

It's not that there are equal "man" and "woman" names for a job most of the time, it's that careers that are predominantly male have co-opted the general name and used it for men only. And then had to scout around for a separate name for women, lest someone mistake a female MP for a real grownup male MP.

The use of 'he' to mean 'he' or 'she' is much more invidoius, and difficult to eliminate editorially, than gendered nouns, I think. Lots of writers are quite strongly committed to avoiding it, but it can be clunky. I am all for using the plural term 'they' to avoid the issue, even when grammatically a singular term is required, but some people put pedantry above equality!

Ooh, thanks EvilAnts, I shall have a good look at that!

Valium - good point about the surprise factor. Although I know some people who say "person" when it's a woman (chairperson, etc) and "man" when it's a man. I also know someone who says things like "madam Chairman"

Trillian - would you refer to the "binman" as that if you saw it was a woman, or if a female friend worked as one would you say "Laura is a binman"? Just curious.

"Unless we say male politician why do we need to insert female into the job title of a female person doing the same job??" exactly, valium.

Good article, and I agree.

Like one of the commenters, I often use 'they' even when it might not be grammatically correct. I feel that using 'they' for he/she should become correct.

Eleison - lots of languages get round this problem by using 'one does xyz' rather than he or she. It's a pity it sounds so stilted in English, because it would overcome the problem of pedantry, too!

I love the surprise factor. I try to overcome my own habits to say e.g. "the person from the lifeboat rang up" or "I was talking to a single parent about the problem with X" and wait for my friend/colleague/mum to say "what did he want?" or "what did she think?" respectively.

But then I'm a boring sod with little excitement in my life :o

Interesting point about 'homeland'. Talking off the top of my head (and possibly through arse as well - contortionist) it seems that Fatherland is used for countries that are powerful/strong
have a history of domination. Motherland seems to be for countries that need protection, historically. I have in mind here personifications of Ireland as the Poor Old Woman whose 4 green fields were stolen, or the beautiful maiden ravished, images from Irish poetry & song over the centuries. Probably loads of exceptions.

Mothertongue seems to acknowledge the role of the mother as primary carer in infancy. The language you learned at the knee of the mother.

No EvilAnts, that sounds like great fun!

Interesting thread. Two points - in Russian, it's 'Mother Russia', not the fatherland. I don't speak enough Russian to know how you'd translate 'country', though.

The other thing - 'hysterical' literally refers to the (putative) medical condition in which women became mentally disordered because of their wombs (uterus is the same root word as hysteria). I think this is a fascinating insight into how people thought about women's mental stability. Even as late as the 19th/early 20th century, it was considered that women should not engage in too much high-level thinking (eg. university), in case they became unable to bear children. The concept is still enshrined in the language.

wukter - but personifications of countries are usually feminine, aren't they? France is Marianne, Britain is Britannia, etc.

I'm not knowledgable about other languages LRP - happy to be set straight by those who are.

I wonder is it to do with a kind of patriotism that demands sacrifice to protect the vulnerable woman...musing.

Not sure I agree LRP - John Bull was the standard personification for Britain for a very long time, and Uncle Sam for Our American Cousins.

I would certainly like to say 'Laura is a binman'. After all, I would say 'Mark is a nurse' (trying to think of a stereotypically female job).

EvilAnts I like the game you describe :)

LittleRedPumpkin - In other languages too the word for the particular country may be feminine (la France, h Ellada, etc) but homeland as a concept tends to be fatherland.

I don't speak Russian either, so I have no idea if they say 'fatherland' though!

And that's one reason why I refuse to use "hysterical".

For all those pedantry fans Jane Austen and many others have used "their" as a neutral pronoun, as in "It is very unfair to judge of any body's conduct, without an intimate knowledge of their situation." (Emma Woodhouse sounding very MN)

Emma Woodhouse would be the disappointing voice of sanity on AIBU.

Interesting about Jane Austen. I never knew that.

Wukter - just read your post and thought about the word "patriot" - perhaps we should coin "matriot" for a woman who loves her country!

DP thinks I am unnecessarily touchy about words like "hysterical" and "illogical" when used to describe me women. He will never understand the weight behind the words I suppose, although has agreed not to use them.

Glad to see other people like my silly little game :o

Virtues were given female personifications weren't they - lady justice etc. Strange when you think that women weren't allowed to practise law