My lovely friend is so happy married to a male chauvanist pig

[YunoWhatYouDidLastSummer]

I am not suggesting that it is any of my business, but I do think about it. I feel conflicted.

She is educated, strong, confident, beautiful and capable.

He is highly educated, intellegent, funny, sociable.

They have a happy marriage with lots of children and lots of friends.

But he is SUCH an arse about some things - really important things.

Actually, what is the difference between a chauvanist and a mysoginist?

He earns the money so she does EVERYTHING else, and with lots of children and pg with another that is a lot to do. EVERYTHING. He comes in and puts his feet up and that's it.

Last Christmas he gave her a cleaner . Everyone thought it was lovely of him and I was the only one spluttering - it makes me doubt myself.

And everything revolves around what he wants to do. He gets an awful lot of sport time and drinking time and tv time. She gets to do things too but he always has first dibs, so her social life fits in around his convenience.

And he is so bloody rude to her in front of people. Shouting and belittling. She says it's okay and he doesn't really mean it :( (People do call him on it though, and tell him it isn't okay).

He is such a spoiled child. And so testosterony. And I have occasionally said that he's a bit of a troglodyte (in a fond way - I know it's crap but I do like him in some ways and we socialise with them a lot, me being an arse to him wouldn't really achieve anything) and she laughs and agrees and doesn't seem to mind.

But surely she must?

She considers herself a feminist, and cares deeply about her daughters upbringing from a feminist perspective.

But... but...

to clarify, last Christmas her Christmas present from him was that he said she could get a cleaner to come in once a week. That wasn't very clear.

Either her head is rattling with cognitive dissonance and one day she will probably stab him with a carving knife, or the pair of them have some kind of understanding that does work for them (maybe when they are home alone he's cleaning the floors in a frilly pinny and a gimp mask).
Either way, I can understand how it sets your teeth on edge but there really isn't anything you can do.

Maybe your friend is very happy to spend a lot of time with her DC and taking care of her house?

My DP doesn't do any a lot of housework, tbh - he loads the dishwasher after supper and unloads it at breakfast and order the Nespresso capsules. And he can be coerced into tidying the sitting room and dining room if we are having (his) friends or family or over.

That's fine by me - he works incredibly hard and he needs to chill. And if I wanted a full-time housekeeper, I could have one - I just don't want one.

Hmm...yes I can understand your frustration here. It doesn't seem a very equal partnership in lots of ways. I used to get annoyed when my ex's brother in law made comments about "earning the money" so he could buy what he wanted. It made me determined never to be in that situation.

I find it slightly contradictory that he can be a misogynist and yet they have a happy marriage. As someone who was in an emotionally abusive relationship with a highly intelligent, educated misogynist for 5 years, I know that when you're in these situations, you don't always see what's going on and you think you're happy. It's only later on that you realise that there were other dynamics going on.

Obviously I don't know this couple but I felt for her when I read your words above and felt that I could identify with her situation to a degree.

In terms of what you can do, I think there's very little, except for the occasional question when he does say something out of order that will hopefully make him think about what he's just said. Other than that, right now, I don't think there's an awful lot you can do. There was a thread recently about how to deal with friends in emotionally abusive relationships. It might be worth reading that again.

And even if she's not offended by some of the things he says, you are allowed to be!

Does your husband belittle you in front of people, Bonsoir? Or at all? And does he, in his rare family time, get to choose whether to go out and play sport/socialise/get drunk without consulting you, and do you get to do the same or do you only socialise if he's already decided not to go out that night?

Cognitive dissonance. Yes, maybe. That was an interesting thread as I'd not come across the concept before.

She's not some beaten down, abused woman who isn't allowed her say. They argue like normal couples and she gets very cross and fed up sometimes. Although he did once 'punish' her by giving her the silent treatement for 3 weeks, after a row. I mean, what an arse .

Tortures, yes, that is where we leave grey area and enter arsehole territory.

And when I say she does everything, I really cannot overstate how 100% I mean that. If they have a party she does absolutely every little thing from the shopping to collecting the ice to the cooking to the clean up and everything. If they go away it is her job to pack up the car (yes, even when pg). And everything to do with the children. It goes beyond what is convenient, it is almost like it is forbidden for him to ever to have to lift a finger.

Hmm difficult one, I'm charmed by the idea of him doing housework in a gimp mask.

I don't think it's good enough to say "it works for them". What about their DD's? They are learning that it's their job to do all the housework and that domestic work is of no value.

But there's nothing you can do about it, except contradict him on your own account. And of course, point out that you're choosing to role model something different for your DD, if you're asked or put on the spot. (Because mysogynists are often quite keen to put you on the spot and then get annoyed when you blithely tell them what's what.)

But now I am making this too specifically about them. I feel a bit disloyal. I meant really to ponder the bigger picture of whether a normal, confident, clever woman can genuinely be happy living like this.

My friend appears to be.

Actually your last post makes him sound abusive tbh.

Yuno yes I think they can if

a) they are suffering cognitive dissonance/ denial or

b) they know there's an end point in sight.

It sounds like a very strange relationship. Hard to imagine a man who would see his pregnant wife humping groceries and big sacks of ice around and not step in at all. Does he watch her work? Or just bugger off? (the latter makes him sound more normal)

I think women can be happy in relationships like this by convincing themselves of a few things, possibly including:

1. I don't deserve him, he is so good to earn the money that I literally CANNOT do enough to make up for this

2. He needs time off (totally forgetting that so does she)

3. Men eh? They're all the same. (Actually no, but many women in badly unbalanced relationships seem to justify this)

4. Lurrve makes it all ok.

Quite honestly, having been in that situation, I would say no - how can someone be happy, unless they have convinced themselves that they are?

I used to get belittled, shouted at, had temper tantrums directed at me, did all the work in terms of housework, and in terms of the relationship. I grabbed the few crumbs that came my way and thought I was happy. I'd have told anyone who asked that I was happy and that I was madly in love. Actually, it was an extremely abusive relationship.

I think there can be a form of Stockholm Syndrome going on in these situations and you can end up normalising certain behaviours. I would make lots of excuses for his behaviour - it's just how he is, he's shy, frustrated, stressed etc - and would dismiss it as not very important. However, I was lucky enough to be financially independent and I wouldn't ever live with this guy, so practically it wasn't too difficult to walk away when my tolerance limit was finally reached. If someone has strong ties to the other person financially and in terms of family, I imagine that they can be very strong reasons for keeping someone invested in a relationship.

Also, I think there can be an element of self-justification stemming from guilt in doing all the domestic work when one of the partners is earning more or all of the household income. I had these feelings in a previous relationship and I certainly felt that I had less power because I wasn't contributing as much to the household income. However, in the situation you describe above, the fact that he contributes nothing to running the household does seem to be yet another manifestation of how this man views a woman's role in general.

Her dds will just assume that this is what to expect from men

Oh yes and the other thing women in this situation tell themselves, is that they have to put up with it because they don't want to break up their families. The lie that "broken families" are the absolute worst thing that can happen to society and a family, serves to keep an awful lot of women in abusive relationships, role modelling abusive relationships to their children who then go on to repeat those relationships in their adult lives. And when women say enough is enough, it's time to put an end to this, instead of throwing a party and celebrating breaking a cycle, everyone commiserates and says how sorry they are that they're going through a marriage break-up and calls their family broken, when in fact it's being fixed. That stigma of lone parenting, is still incredibly strong.

So what I'm saying is, these women can comfort themselves with the lie that at least the DC's have their father living with them, which must be a Good Thing, mustn't it? And that also helps them get through,.

I have a friend like this. In many ways I would just like to write about her on here and get it right off my chest. But her story is easily identifiable to a few people in his industry and they'd work out who I was yadda yadda...
(Plus she could read it herself. Man oh man that would be a wake up call.)

Anyway, she's married to a man who I suspect is absolutely not right in the head in some NPD sort of way. She does everything, but he will willingly be told to do selected tasks occasionally and she sees this as a sign that he is a great guy. NB this isn't a best-of-a-bad-job feeling, she actively thinks he is golden.

He lies to her on a regular basis about professional matters and she boasts about the things he's lied about (even the most basic checking would allow her to see that it's a lie) and if you gently suggest that something else is going on she cuts you dead with a simple "No, that's not how it is." And nobody wants to put her straight because they are chickens and don't want to be the one to bring down the house of cards.

He has groomed her not to argue (because it's undignified), not to drink to excess (she loves a good night out but women shouldn't make bigger fools of themselves than they already can when sober), not to spend money (she checks with him before making big purchases and he never does with her), and not to expect him to check in with her (he won't carry a mobile).

God there is so much more but anyway - what can you do? She's allowed to live with whomever she wants and do what she likes with her life.

See, I don't think it's that she doesn't want to break uo her family. It is that she truly feels that she has a happy family life and a great marriage. And if she genuinely feels that then it is so. You can't ever know better than someone how they feel. Therefore her marriage is happy.

Eeek. Which brings me back to the brainache of my gorgeous, lovely friend being genuinely happy married to a sexist, chauvenist man.

But she is.

But I also think people make a good point in saying she has an awful lot invested in utterly investing in the idea that everything is great.

Also, in her case, I think she probably believes that she is lucky to have him. For all his fuckwittedness, childishness and bullying, he is very popular, funny, witty, confident, good looking, fit, has a brilliant career, is a good cook, a good sportsman, he is the life and soul of a party, he adores his boys and is very hands on with them, and is a decent enough stepdad to her girls.

She would look at all that, look at herself and see a single mum with a low paying job and not much in the way of education. Not that it's the money (it can't be, she scrimps and saves every penny).

UnePrune (were you Pruners?) you are right about the getting it off ones chest Vs being identified. I am sort of relieved to be able to talk about it, but feel terribly disloyal to my friend. What if she read it? Eeek.

Your friend's husband sounds another arse.

Maybe she's playing the game until the children are older/away from home.

I cannot get what you think is so wrong here. Man works hard to earn lots of money to give his family a great lifestyle; woman works hard at house and children to ensure they all have a good time.

There is no problem if they are both happy with this situation.

I have a friend who was in a situation like this

It didn't end well, as I have documented on here

what started off as low-level chauvinism (oh, ha, ha ,ha isn't he funny, what a throwback to the 50's etc etc) escalated until he ended up abusing her in every single way possible

she thought she was happy too

and thought that by putting up with this crap she was building a lovely family life

she was very wrong

Yes I was Pruners ages ago! In my case it's such a small world and he's so easily identifiable, so I can't just let it all out.

The thing that I struggle with is the sense of entitlement that they both have. He clearly feels he is entitled to adulation (he deals badly when challenged, ever). And she clearly feels that she is entitled to people admiring both him, and her for being so clever as to manage him. It's a good technique because by simply behaving as though she were living a perfect world, she cuts any challenge dead. Unfortunately people have to have an outlet and the bitching that goes on is quite special.

I should add that she herself is a lovely woman, very vibrant and giving of herself, and of course he's a predictably good-looking schmoozy bastard with a great sense of humour etc etc. So by not having them around, people do lose something, plus I wonder if a few people think they can negotiate things better than they actually can.