Why are my choices between a: doing all the shitwork myself or b: living in a dirty tip or c: diverting all household disposable income into cleaners or d: shouting at my DH all the time?

[howdidthishappenthen]

Seriously. I don't like any of the above choices. When we both work exactly the same hours, why can't DH do his share?* He does do half of the childcare which is great, and rare, but I have yet to introduce him to the arts (ha!) of laundry, emptying cat litter, online shopping, cooking, washing up, or bedmaking. We employ a cleaner three times a week to do vaccuming, bathroom and kitchen cleaning, and all our ironing, but that still leaves about 2 hours of general work to do every day. I don't want to live in a tip. I don't want to row with my husband every day to make him take his turn. How on earth am I even HAVING THIS BLOODY CONVERSATION in 2010! Anyone out there got any tips?!

*I have just read Wifework. Probably not a book conducive to domestic harmony..

OK, so one of <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.theholdingcompany.co.uk/images/products/small/pf_ORG016.jpg&imgrefurl=www.theholdingcompany.co.uk/laundry-bins-deptlau_bins/&usg=__j07U42AybtHsQUSH9yfUpavWGh8=&h=188&w=170&sz=25&hl=en&start=10&sig2=0Ox98lWedX6zz_7yH9aY4w&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=5McPkuBM3HnWYM:&tbnh=102&tbnw=92&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlaundry%2Bsection%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26cr%3DcountryUK%257CcountryGB%26biw%3D1451%26bih%3D777%26tbs%3Disch:1,ctr:countryUK%257CcountryGB&ei=7ByuTPWUAoyTswagxdmNDQ" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">these - with new stickers, for 'mine & kids' and 'his'?

Yes.I do. And actually, DH doesn't mind mucking in and knows perfectly well he married a feminist. He's (just like pretty much all blokes) happy to live in 'happyland' where the clean pants and nice cooked meals turn up to schedule, if that's where I let him live. Off now to do some voice-training exercises suitable to re-birth my inner harpy..

Reading this thread, I am feeling really happy about the fact that dhs father was a sahd, keeping the house and cooking and cleaning, while dhs mum was going out to work. (One of them had to stay home and be a full time carer for their dd). It was quite an untraditional set up, this being Poland. He has no problems doing housework, and dont regard it as "womans work", he is a crap cook though.

Dittany - you are right "he needs to pull his weight and he needs to do it without you having to lose your mind with the frustration of trying to get him to do it".

But practically and pragmatically HOW is he going to realise this and do it? Isn't that what the OP is asking? (It's what I want to know of my DH.) I find this SO hard.

I agree with Dittany. The politics of housework should be essential reading for everyone. Perhaps you could get your DH to read it howdidthishappenthen. While you're at it, get him to read wifework as well?

I think it's ok to accept that as many men as women have grown up brainwashed by the cultural norm that makes domestic chores the responsibility of the woman. However, once you've ended the brainwashing by having a mature discussion about it and what it means, there really is no excuse for him not pulling his weight any more. Once it's been spelled out, if he choses not to do his fair share you can only draw one conclusion - that he considers himself more important than you and that you do not merit enough respect for him to make the extra effort.

Personally, I disagree with the posters who suggest giving your DH a list of tasks. You could perhaps agree to divide specific tasks while you're discussing the subject, but generally he should take responsibility for things himself. What would he do if he lived on his own? An intelligent adult should be able to work it out for himself. If a man makes a cup of tea while there's not much milk left, but because 'buy milk' is not on his list he ignores it, then he's either selfish or a moron. Working to lists may ease the practical burden for the woman, but it reduces none of the mental/emotional burden of trying to remember everything for everyone.

Glad you had the conversation with him, OP, and more importantly that he was receptive and not just dismissive of your concerns. He clearly has no fundamental objection to pulling his weight, just hasn't really been bothered up to now so it's good that you are setting up a mutually agreed system to make sure you are not left doing everything.

Re dittany's sexism point, I agree that it's still a problem that women end up doing 'the second shift'. It's a fundamental reason why a lot of women are more stressed than men because they have to fit in two roles of working person and household manager. Personally, I would never have married a man who couldn't clean up his own crap and cook. I swore I would never skivvy after any man, after watching my mother wait on us children and especially on my father and brother all her life.

However... there is an element in which women are complicit in their own domestic slavery. So many women I know let their male partners get away with absolute murder in terms of household duties. Colleagues of mine cook and freeze meals at the weekend so their DH doesn't have to cook if they're out during the week, they work part-time because they can't fit in all the housework without it, openly saying that their DH doesn't do any of the housework. They clean the kitchen at work if it's a bit grimy, completely belittling themselves and they clean up male colleagues' dirty cups etc. A former boss once left a dirty mug on my desk (he was a sexist wanker so it wasn't absent-mindedness) and I let it sit there for a couple of day, deliberately, then took it and put it on his desk. I know for sure that all the other women in my team would have washed it up for him. Not me!

It is one of the great mysteries of our time, if you ask me, why these women put up with it. It's not a mystery why men don't do their fair share - why should they if their wife / female colleague is running and skivvying for them? We would all do nothing if things got done for us. Mothers are also to blame as they don't raise their sons to be independent. My MIL did the bare minimum for my DH growing up and I respect her for it. Although she was a housewife, she is not a doormat.

Anyway, am I just lucky in having found a man who is a happy combination of a clean-freak and a feminist? I don't know. All I would say is that women need to get better about openly articulating what they want in a relationship and not taking any crap. Rather than sulking or giving your partner the silent treatment because he doesn't wash up or being passive-aggressive, just be forthright and honest from day one that you don't clean up after anyone. Sorry to sound like I'm putting the onus on women but unfortunately most men are not going to change unless they're forced to.

I think this is where it becomes so difficult (for me anyway) - moving the political/theoretical stance to be applied to my personal everyday life. I'm not yet sure that I can deal with the upheaval - thus living in the uncomfortable area of cognitive dissonance I suppose (a whole other thread or two there ) - and looking for the 'easiest' path to take to get the problem sorted so that I can face doing it. There probably (for me at the moment) is a level of servitude that I will put up with for the sake of a quiet life.

(This is coming from me in a not horrendously anti-feminist unbalanced relationship, but certainly not perfect either - similarish to OP's description)

Hmmmmm

I was absolutely shocked upon becoming a mother at how rarely housework and childcare were even slightly shared between husband and wife. I was shocked at how it was just assumed that you do all the housework and childcare. I spent the first year of DD's life wondering if it was just the area I lived in, or just the people I knew, but slowly it dawned upon me that this is how most people live. I'd never thought of DH and I having such a radical relationship before then, but apparently we are! It's difficult in such an environment not to feel like congratulating any men you encounter who take an equal share of their housework on because it's so bloody rare.

Their mothers do loudly support it don't they. I suffered, so shall you!

I think that is true Sprogger, many women don't marry "sexist pricks". but then the way paid work and childcare and societal expectations are structured, it is just too easy to fall into gendered roles after having a baby in particular. The woman is off on maternity leave, men in the UK don't have the option of sharing the parental leave in a way that happens in some countries. Often the woman shortens her working hours, it's often easier for her to do that, on average women are working in sectors which are more favourable to it, and managers are more inclined to support such decisions.

And so it goes on, and then women find they're stuck in a gendered way of living that they (and often their partners) just didn't intend.

And the repurcussions of really raising feminist harpy hell at that point are quite major. I'm in a very strong position cos I was always a raving harpy, DP had a long string of feminist harpy girlfriends before me to soften him up, and so I CAN issue ultimatums on things like housework. Dp would expect nothing else from me and he does agree, in principle. But to start from scratch, years into a relationship, that is hard.

I can understand your frustration with all the housework as i find it ever so hard. iam a single mother of 3 (8,3 and 10mths) and i really struggle.dd1 and ds have a disability so i have numerous appts etc to take them to and never get much time for housework and seem to spend every weekend playing catch up with the washing etc etc.

I try to do as much as i can every day but it is so so difficult, i dont have much money but am tempted to get a cleaner for couple hours a week as simply cannot manage with everything, the best i seem to be able to manage is that kids are washed dressed, fed and have clean clothes but my house is full of clutter and loads of hosp letters etc its just a mess.

when i was with my ex he did do a lot to help so its an even bigger shock now doing it by myself but we didnt have a system of who did what jobs if something needed doing one of us just did it i think he was quite good in that respect that he would notice when hoovering needed doing as some men dont!!

This is a gendered issue and because it is my relationship has almost ended over it a number of times. It was only when DH realised that I would actually walk if he didn't accept that my standards were normal and that doing his half was not 'helping'. I also refused to 'ask' him to do stuff: no one has to 'ask' me to make sure there is milk in the fridge. Asking, reminding and writing rosters is all work and guess who does it? A cleaner can help, but who pays her/him, makes sure the cleaning stuff is in the house and s/he has a key etc....? Guess? Just not doing stuff until he notices doesn't work well when you have children because they miss out: I was hardly going to send them to school without lunch after all?

This has been a real issue for us and I think we are finally ok because DH finally got it. We also divide stuff in a rather odd way so that we both do all of one or two things, according to what we enjoy (I always cook, he always does baths with kids). I knew I could not give in over this because the injustice of simply accepting that I had to do it all or choreograph his doing his half would have corroded my sense of self and, consequently, our relationship.

Housework is a feminist issue.

jenny60 - how did you discuss it with your DH and what enabled him to finally get it?

You do know that the "leave it until he notices that it needs doing" doesn't work and is a recipe for conflict, don't you? It makes me cringe every time someone suggests it.

I'm sorry to have to say stirlingstar that we used to row about it, a lot. I still don't think things are perfect, but I couldn't really expect them to be I suppose and I'm sure I'm not always right. I think that finding a divison of labour that both of us could live with was key: a straight 50/50 split didn't suit either of our schedules or personalities. I used to go nuts when I realised that I was cooking or washing again, and again and again, but now I don't mind because I don't have to do baths, and I get to do my own thing for large chunks of the weekend when DH completely takes over child care. I also did absolutely back off in other areas like buying gifts for his family: his problem, his embarressment if he forgets. For the members of his family I actually like, I buy somehting from me. I said I would leave over this and one day I began to do just that. That's when it really hit him and things really did change.

I am still very angry about the fact that it took this long for us to get here though and while I think some of that was down to different expectations, a lot of it was down to his not thinking beyond the obvious in terms of what needed doing in the house. I hate that this caused us so much stress, mainly to me.

Agree with that last point about being angry Jenny. My leverage was refusing to have children until we got it straight and I think I will be angry for a long time about years wasted because he wouldn't think about or even acknowledge the issues.

I need to seriously think about where to draw my line on what could be a leaving issue. I hate rows. And I dont' feel it seems so bad that I want to leave - but I do want it better balanced. So there must be a line at some point.

I might try better enforcement of the 'equal free time' rule - DH would probably see this as a less conflicty route, but potentially with same outcome. Though will have to ensure that the planning/emotional work is included in the calculation.

Of course I wish I'd done better at this in retrospect too - it got a notch worse with each mat leave (as others said above)

My one warning about the equal free time path is DH (briefly) claimed that time I spent cooking didn't count as work because I like cooking! That didn't go down well and didnt last long but did show that he wasn't getting the point.

Yep, maternity leave and for me it's complicated by the fact that my job is 'flexible'. In some ways it would be easier to negotiate if we both worked away from home for 40 hours or whatever per week. But I'm all over the place and often working from home. When I do, I fit housework in around my paid work, but DH can't seem to work that one out. I have had female flatmates who were almost as bad so I don't put it down to gender alone, but it is about gender insofar as I would think the man I love, have children with etc... should be more willing to change in what are pretty monir ways in order to make me happier/saner.