Why are my choices between a: doing all the shitwork myself or b: living in a dirty tip or c: diverting all household disposable income into cleaners or d: shouting at my DH all the time?

[howdidthishappenthen]

Seriously. I don't like any of the above choices. When we both work exactly the same hours, why can't DH do his share?* He does do half of the childcare which is great, and rare, but I have yet to introduce him to the arts (ha!) of laundry, emptying cat litter, online shopping, cooking, washing up, or bedmaking. We employ a cleaner three times a week to do vaccuming, bathroom and kitchen cleaning, and all our ironing, but that still leaves about 2 hours of general work to do every day. I don't want to live in a tip. I don't want to row with my husband every day to make him take his turn. How on earth am I even HAVING THIS BLOODY CONVERSATION in 2010! Anyone out there got any tips?!

*I have just read Wifework. Probably not a book conducive to domestic harmony..

I don't think a cleaner 3 x a week is that useful. Kitchen and bathroom is surely nothing more than a quick wipe round?

Have your cleaner come in once a week to blitz it. You don't need to hoover more than once a week, top to bottom. Kitchen surfaces are done everytime you cook anyway. She can also do the beds in that time.

You need a dishwasher. Its as much a cupboard for dirty dishes as it is a useful white good. Put it on at night, put it away in the morning.

Make the bins DHs responsibility.

Otherwise its general straightening and tidying, cooking and clearing up, which no one can really avoid.

It's a tough one herbeatitude. Everything would be simpler if there was some "gold standard" of cleanliness that both partners could agree to and aspire to. I used to get quite irate at my DH because of his untidiness, on the basis, as you said, that it was making me feel uncomfortable and agitated. But over time I realised that my higher level of tidiness was putting him on edge by making him feel like he couldn't relax in his own home. There has to be give and take on both sides, which sometimes mean the more tidiness-oriented person (be that man or woman) has to lower their standards somewhat in recognition of the fact that not everyone needs a house to be absolutely tidy.

To be fair to my DH, he acknowledged that he just doesn't see the mess and so he agreed to take on a few jobs that are exclusively his. I have full permission to nag about these jobs without fear of an argument (hehe). At the same time I've lowered my standards somewhat and we've reached fairly even ground. The mess of the house does bother me sometimes but then I think life's too fecking short.

BTW - I am and always have been adamant that I will never ever do my DH's laundry unless he loses both arms or goes blind. When I told my mum this she said I was "very hard on him" which made me incredulous. So, just because I'm a woman I should do the laundry?? Their his clothes, I never wear them, so I shouldn't have to wash them FFS!!

"You also need to expect more from your 3 yo. My 3 yo will tidy away her own bath toys (and other toys too) and puts her own dirty washing in the wash basket for instance."

Problem is - it then becomes her job to expect more from the children. Another wife/mother responsibility rather than that big a help right away.

My dd will help clean and tidy (and cook and decorate and....) but it takes about 5 times as long and double the effort that it would to just do it by myself. Which I deal with because it's teaching her things and I'm on my own.

But I wouldn't see the answer to a 2nd adult in the house not doing their fair share as being to give myself the extra responsibility of teaching a 3 year to participate more in clearing up when I also have a baby to deal with.

Sonnet ....
I get up with the kids at 7 am and get them ready for school, and sort everything in the morning. Start work 8.30.
I finnish work at 4pm, get dinner ready, and clean up after dinner.

Then I either go for my exercise classes or to teach my class (Norwegian for foreign nationals - class duration 2 1/2 hours), unless it is monday.
On mondays I take our youngest for Football from 18.30 to 19.30. We get home at 19.45 and get out of football kit and the kids start having their evening meal. Babysitter arrives, dh and I go for our salsa class.

Weekly grocery shop on the way home from Salsa. Home for 22.15. Clean up a little, watch an episode of Seinfeld, or two, then bed. The other days, dh takes the kids for their activities, swimming and tae kwon do, and if I have teaching, he also puts them to bed.

I dont teach every week, as the courses go in bulks of 2 weeks teaching (2 evenings per week), one week off, another two weeks of teaching. Then maybe a few weeks off til the next course starts.

But dh is a member of the Red Cross mountain rescue squad, and if he is out on a rescue mission, or has a course, we do run in to some problems, and need to utilize babysitters more.

We both work from home in the daytime, which of course offers some flexibility, but it also means that we have a need to get out in the evenings and do something "meaningful" with our lives.

Dh is very keen for me to get out to exercise, and to teach the classes, so he is totally ok with being with the kids up to 4 afternoons per week while I do "my thing".

It is part of our "QS Alzheimer prevention strategy" as my grandma, my mum, and three of my uncles had/have alzheimers. I like to keep busy, active, healthy and have my brain challenged, to try and ward if off.

Sorry Sonnet, but you asked. Sorry it is so long!

Actually, most people where telling her to get him to do his fair share but that doing 2 hours a day of housework was ridiculous (on top of hiring a cleaner 3 times a week).

I think it is absolutely correct to say it is is only sodding housework.

Posted earlier saying I agreed with anastasia re getting small children to help, but it's not here

so here it is now!

Have you actually had a conversation with your husband about what he does around the house? My husband has higher standards than me (has to wash up dishes that are in the sink immediately before we start cooking dinner, for example, whereas I would be happy to just leave them in the sink and do a bulk wash later) and he has sometimes asked me to do more or pointed out that he always has to take out the bins instead of me. He would always say it jokingly or just be upfront about it. I don't think he's a shrieking harpy / PITA for saying it. I would just grudgingly admit that he does more than me and make an effort to wash up the dishes more (for a while... then my resolve wavers )...

Maybe I'm just a bit of a 'man' when it comes to housework or my DH just has unusually high standards. I think either way when people have different standards on housework a frank conversation - not nagging but light-hearted - is the way to go.

DH and I split housework relatively evenly, but I'm sure that if I did everything it would easily come to two hours a day, including general tidying up, cooking, cleaning the kitchen after, laundry, pets, bill paying and admin. This is only basic stuff and we get a cleaner once a week to do the "proper" cleaning. The only days it doesn't come to two hours is the days we don't bother doing something but that's because we decide between to let something go. I really don't think it's an astronomical amount of housework.

Fair enough for a 3 year old to help out, it's fair enough to get her to tidy up her own toys but she's hardly going to unload and reload the dishwasher is she?

As for differing standards, most people fall somewhere in the middle, neither require everything to be immaculate nor to want to live in a sty. If you or your partner want to live in a show home, yes you probably will have to accept that the person who has higher standards will have to do most of the work. But if you just want to avoid the sty outcome, it's only fair that your partner does his share even if he really couldn't care less. (But I don't believe many men really couldn't care less.)

Probably not adding anything new here
In our relationship, I am the lazy slattern and dh has had to lower his standards after years of frustration with me...getting a cleaner was a marriage saver!

I think your main issue is that you have somehow got into the habit of doing things for him that he should be doing for himself. Like others, I initially thought 'we don't do anything like 2 hours a day' but then some of the jobs we do so automatically that it feels like they don't take any time at all. Clearing away - everyone is expected to tdo their own (kids are 8 and 6). Washing up - our default is that if you cook, the other one washes up. Cooking - depends who is picking up kids - we plan together before shopping. Washing - happens in between times, bits in morning and evening, we both just bung loads in and hang them out when we remember.
But basically - if I say to dh, I've done all the washing this week, he'll feel guilty and remember to do it a bit more (and vice versa). Its not perfect, there are things I do (sort out dcs parties, buy their clothes, etc etc) and things he does (deal with the bins).
I suspect you're probably a bit too efficient, and yes, you probably do need to relax your standards a wee bit. But he needs to start noticing what you are doing too!

Yes of course it's gendered and many many men don't do much as they feel (consciously or with someone like my DH subconsciously) that domestic chores are someone else's job.

So eg in my case I can rage at the way society sees "keeping house" as "women's work" and see that if a house is a mess people won't think that it's the man's fault, etc etc

But in an individual case where the man is basically decent and it's not something you want to divorce over or even have a row, you just want it improved, then practical ideas are good. Surely.

Happy to come onto your other thread and have a rant

And everyone is expected to get their own clothes into the washing basket and then out of the basket and put away (including the ds's).
What happens if you have a frank conversation about it with him? I know that my dh used to get very upset with me leaving him to do it all (as he saw it) so I do now try a lot harder to make sure I am pulling my weight.

"This bloke isn't even washing his own dishes after he's been cooked for though TCF. That's not about her standards, that's about his laziness and sexism."

Yes, he is being a lazy fecker no one is doubting that. But 2 hours house work per day on top of a cleaner three times a week? Com on, it is not normal. She has fallen for the bull crap that no woman's life is complete unless her house looks like a show room.

Unfortunately our mothers and mothers-in-law have in many cases done us a massive disservice in bringing up a (hopefully final) generation of men who have not seen their fathers put a load of washing in or clean the pots.

This is precisely the reason why it is important to stop this cycle and not pass it on to the next generation.

Put it to him like this: does he want his daughter to be treated like an equal and respected by the men in her life, or does he want to continue the pattern that a woman's place is in the home cleaning up other peoples crap? Does he want his son to be respectful and appreciative of his partner?

If he wants to be a good dad, he needs to be a good role model. And that starts with you and your relationship.

Besides, bins are definately a blue job.

Reading that back, I don't mean to sound as though I'm blaming our mothers - rather it was a different generation who did things differently, and its time to stop it.

2 hours a day with a toddler and a roughly weaning aged baby in the home though - that probably generates more housework than someone with older children or a newborn that doesn't do much yet.

I can easily imagine it being that much or even more sometimes!

University is the answer.

I learned to look after myself properly there. DB was the laziest arse in the universe until he went to university and realised that no-one was going to clean up his crap unless he did. Sadly my DH didn't go until we were married . Getting him to take his rightful share is going to be a lifetimes job.

I hate living in too much mess but sadly it doesn't seem to bother anyone else so the 'I'm not doing it until you do' ploy isn' going to bother anyone but me. So I have compromised by giving the DC small tasks to do, paying pocket money in return for others regular chores, encouraging them to cook with me from time to time, and keeping their bedroom door shut

Thanks everyone for pitching in. Pretty much everyone's answers have been interesting, and I got both some good tips, and also some feminist debate - couldn't have asked for more really .

FWIW, today I have:

1: ordered 3 laundry baskets - from today, I'll wash and dry mine and the kids stuff, but not his. Everything that comes out of tumble drier will go into a basket. I'll sort my stuff, he can do his, the 2-day a week nanny can do the kids.
2: Ordered a chalkboard, to do (together) and display weekly mealplans, and reminded him that 3 these meals are his, 3 mine, and 1 night a week we go out. He was totally cool with this.
3: Asked him to shop and cook tonight. Which he has done very cheerfully.
4: Emailed the landlord and told them to get the dishwasher sorted.

So now I am feeling much better.

Oh god. I was feeling better. But I KNOW that when I stop doing it, DH will immediately ask our cleaner to sort and put away his laundry. I FEEL better,but is is really better that he just makes a different (less privileged) woman do it than me? Christ being a feminist is rock/hardplace/fucking hard place sometimes :-(

we both work full time and ni recent weeks I'd say its me who hasn't pulled her weight in the house. DH knows he is equally responsible and that we share childcare and housework - it wasn't always thus, but we've got there. We are all out of the house by 7.40am and rarely back before 5pm. We haev a cleaner once a week, DH does the ironing, I do the shopping, we share the rest.

WRT the washing - I don't think its the way to go to get him to pitch in equally TBH. I don't think you'll be happy when he says "But I've done my stuff". Its not about him being responsible for his bit, but being equally responsible for all of it.

I tried this, lasted 5 minutes. Took me longer to seperate his stuff and just felt a bit daft.

Well yes, I agree with you Dittany, on this thread. totally.

but as I posted earlier, I would walk out on DP for this issue, and I do threaten this at times.

OP posted a while back, "So how do I do this without sounding like a feminist harpy?"

I suppose to me, there is absolutely no shame in sounding like a feminist harpy. Quite the opposite. I'm a feminist, what's the problem in sounding like one?