Swapping one controlling relationship for another?

[TheBossofMe]

Bit of a difficult post for me, so apologies in advance if I ramble a bit.

I have a very good and very old friend, who married an utter arse of a man. Manipulative, abusive (physically and emotionally), gaslighting twat of the first order. He was controlling to the point that for 4-5 years, the only contact we could have with each other (me and friend) was in secret, she was allowed no other friends (we managed to find ways round this), was banned from contact with her family. She wasn't allowed out of the house except with prior permission (he used to ring to check she was home), he decided her haircut (cut by him at home), her clothes (all bought by him), what she ate, she was allowed no money of her own etc etc. As well as beating her up and raping her constantly. You know the type.

Eventually, she found the strength within her to leave him, with the help of friends and a women's shelter, who provided immense practical help as well as a home for a while. She is now back on her feet and finding her way in life again.

The problem (and I'm not sure if its a problem, hence why I'm posting) is that she has formed a very close friendship with one of the women she met via the shelter (woman was a facilitator at a self-help meet thing, so volunteer, but in a position of trust). And I'm a bit worried that she has just swapped one controlling relationship for another.

They cam to stay with me last week since they are holidaying together (first holiday for friend in about 15 years!), and I was a bit shocked at some of what I saw. So, first of all, said woman was a bit rude to me, berating me for playing the patriarchal game in my job, sucking up to men and profiting from the opppression of women. She sees working in capitalist organisations as inherently patriarchal and oppressive, which may well be true, but she was quite happy to eat my food, live in my house for a week, drink all of my wine (which is staggeringly expensive here!) and let me pay for everything for her and my friend (NB, happy to do so for friend, she is very dear to me and I'm happy that she's with me on holiday after such a long time, so would probably have been a bit awkward if I hadn't also paid for her companion - its just that I think its a bit rich to openly criticise source of wealth whilst dining off the profits!).

More worryingly, she is very very controlling about my friend. So my friend suggested some things to do (eg shopping, visiting floating market), only for other woman to refuse to do them, and belittle friend for wanting to do them, so that friend eventually backed down and didn't go.

She sent her back to her room to change out of an outfit that she said was too revealing and denigrating to women (outfit was a strapless maxi dress) because it displayed them as sexual objects.

She shouted at her for wearing make up and high heels for the same reason.

She told her off for reading some chick lit, and launched into a 10 minute long tirade about how she should "better herself" by reading some proper writing (Dworkin, Wolff and Faludi given as examples, which in itself I probably applaud, but the context was awful), telling her that if she had educated herself better, she wouldn't have ended up married to the arse.

And every time friend expressed an opinion about something, she shouted her down, grilling her and arguing with her until eventually friend either shut up or changed her POV. So she shut down conversation and debate about all kinds of things, from obviously contentious topics battlegrounds like transexuality, giving up a career to raise children, adoption, surrogacy, plastic surgery and porn, to really light topics such as whether high heels are anti-feminist, and whether girls really like doing ballet or are conditioned to like it. All with a constant refrain of "if you were a real feminist, you wouldn't think that". My friend was literally not allowed to have her own opinion on anything at all, unless that opinion converged with the other womans

DH thinks I'm over-reacting because I just don't like said woman after she was rude to me (and yes I admit I don't like her). he reckons that this is just part of a consciousness-raising process that many people go through, and that my friend will emerge at the other end intact and with her own voice and able to stand up and argue with the other woman. I think my friend has just swapped one controlling nutter for another one. Particularly worried since at the end of the holiday it emerged that she will be moving in with this woman, and will be taking a job with her, with this woman as a boss. Alarm bells ringing, or should I just let it roll?

God, sorry, really long post!

Oh yes, the woman also pooled their holiday money into a joint kitty which she held.

You are right to be concerned.

I suppose the litmus test would be if you just swap the genders and a man was treating her like that.. how would you react. And you already have the answer to that as you have been in that position.

Hmm, just re-read my post and probably haven't made it clear why I'm posting this here - its because DH thinks this is a part of "becoming a feminist" - ie you come across someone who challenges you, changes your views, makes you think differently. I think its more sinister than that, and thought that some other feminists might have a POV.

In case anyone thought this was me having a dig at the fact that the woman is a feminist.

If it's a friend who she can use as a sounding board till she gets back her perspective on stuff it could possibly have been ok. But this doesn't sound ok at all and would be constantly present at work and home.
What a nightmare... Alarm bells definitely.

Also, is it ethical? Isn't it like a relationship between therapist and patient??

I'm not sure, SG - she's not actually a therapist, just volunteers as a helper. She runs her own business, and employs quite a few women who she met through the group - and I think probably that she gives women who are battered and bruised emotionally and physically a chance to rebuild a life by giving them employment. I hear that many people speak highly of her (another friend who is also a bit concerned tells me this - I'm too far away geographically to judge)

But the particular circumstances here disturb me a bit.

Why is she moving in with her? Is it something temporary?
The employment bit is great. Even challenging her ideas could be fine - but nobody wants that 24 hrs. Your friend is not going to be able to 'go home' after a crap day at work.

From the examples you have given, this doesn't sound normal and you have reasons to be concerned. Your friend hasn't found someone who she can bounce ideas off, who will challenge her and show her a different POV in a gentle and mutually respectfully way. This woman sounds like a bully.

Some parts of what she's doing could be helpful - talking to her and engaging her in debate, and employing her.

But it sounds like this woman has hired herself out as a full-time bodyguard to your friend. Maybe she's seen too many women go back to their abusive arses husbands through lack of support, and wants to do her best for your friend. But she is being very controlling and IMO a bit crazy.

I am amazed at the telling her not to wear strapless dresses, make-up, heels etc, I count myself as a feminist and would defend any woman against charges that her clothing encouraged objectification, as long as those clothes were worn by her own free choice.

Sometimes you do get counsellors who are attracted to their work because they get to meet people who have been ground down. It's possible this woman is like that. Or it might be that she is just desperate to "save" your friend, as is going way over the top. Do you think they are starting a relationship?

Either way, you need to have a quiet word with your friend to express your feelings that living AND working with someone might be a bit much.

May I ask where you are? Because I find it impossible to believe that a British organisation set up to help women who are victims of DV, would employ helpers like this one.

All her behaviour is of course barking, but the thing which really rings loud alarm bells, is that she is moving in with your friend. There is simply no way in the world that that could happen here, it is completely unethical to pursue a relationship of that nature with someone who may be emotionally dependent on you because you are helping them through recovering from an abusive relationship and any helper or worker would be trained to know that.

I would be concerned.

I would also have ejected her from my house.

OK, to answer a few questions:

HB - I'm in Thailand, but my friend is based in the UK (hence why I was so thrilled that she's visiting me for a holiday!). I'm not entirely sure of the status of this woman in the DV organisation, just that she moderates/facilitates/helps out at a group where women from the shelter can get practical ways to help/get help - from just talking, to getting help in filling in benefit forms, to finding employment etc. She's definitely not employed by the group, and I'm not even sure of the relationship between the group she's part of and the shelter, think group is entirely voluntary, so its a bit murky as far as what the ethics are on forming friendships like this. I would imagine, however, that its not unusual for women to form friendships with women they meet via such organisations, since people often gravitate to those with shared experiences. I think the woman herself is a past victim of DV, so voluteers in that capacity, as well as offering practical help (eg employing women in her cleaning business). Is that not allowed? I really don't know what the ethics of this are. I just know that I feel uncomfortable with some of what she's doing/saying.

Elephants - no idea if they are starting a relationship in the sexual sense. They stayed in separate rooms with me (my friend was specific about checking whether we had space for this when she asked if it was OK to come with a friend rather than on her own). But they have gone onto a hotel in Phuket where I know they are sharing a room. Its entirely possible, I guess.

I think you might be right that she's trying her hardest to help and is just a bit misguided in how to do it. FWIW, my friend is also a bit meek, and after years of being controlled, may well gravitate to people who tell her what to do, think etc, because its what she knows.

Sweetgrapes - my friend is renting a room (at bargain rates) from this woman - she's thrilled to be getting her own place (which is how she sees this), so I'm really wary about raining on her parade - I also don't want to be just another person who tells her what to do, think etc. My friend is talking about it as a temp thing until she has some money saved for a deposit for her own place (not sure what the HB situation is re deposits, but know that my friend is determined to get on her own feet and become self-supporting as quickly as possible).

Dittany - yes we really did have discussions about transexualism and surrogacy. To explain how the conversation arose (along with other conversations that turned into minefields):

Transexualism - its Thailand, and you can't move where I live without bumping into a ladyboy or ten! Almost everyone who comes to stay here ends up asking about how transexuality is perceived in Thailand - even my parents and in-laws have asked. So its actually not unusual for a conversation about trans to arise. Add to that the fact that I volunteer in an organisation which helps HIV infected individuals access healthcare, education etc (many of whom are transexuals), and its easy to see how it would happen. The "row" was about the fact that the organisation I work with was originally set up to work with female prostitutes, but has expanded to supports wives infected by husbands and trans prostitutes, which the woman had a problem with.

Surrogacy, adoption - this arose because my friend asked about another friend with whom I had been planning to enter into a surrogacy arrangement (documented on some other thread of mine) and whether her children were as a result of going ahead with mutual surrogacy arrangement with someone else (two friends haven't seen each other in years, so she didn't know if she had been pregnant or not). Then a discussion about whether I would consider surrogacy again, or adoption, arose, which triggered another lecture.

Porn is on every street corner here and sold literally side by side with kids films (nice to be looking for Toy Story 3 on DVD and have to flick past Brenda's Big Ones to find it). I said something about having to become blind to it, which got me a lecture about how I shouldn't shop in such places and should organise a campaign about it. Yes, I probably should, but I can't do everything all at once, and I've already got too many projects on the go.

I agree its not chit chat you have with an old friend, but this isn't just any old friend who you chat with - she was my best friend for many many years, and we've been there for each other through a lot of trauma on both sides (cancer, infertility, alcohol abuse, DV), so talk about major things tends to feature as much as small talk.

The rest of the stuff was quite chit-chatty type topics. Plastic surgery - again, cheap and easily available here, and I made some comment about needing to get a tummy tuck and lipo from all the good food before I go home again. High heels lecture was prompted by me coming home, kicking off my shoes and saying something about my feet killing me. Ballet - took DD to ballet class in pink tutu-type thingy. Another lecture there.

She was a bit of a stereotype in some ways, but not so much in others. I feel like I;m being a bitch because she is helping in so many practical ways (my friend is so so so thrilled that she has a job and a place to love), but I can't help being worried.

Maybe I am over-reacting - they are coming back in a few days before returning home, so I'll see how things are. If its the same, then I might have a quiet word - any suggestions on how to approach it without offending my friend and sounding like I;m trying to control her as well?

invite your friend back to stay without the hanger-on/ helper. just explain it would be really nice to see each other properly after so long, and it's just been too busy/ shared with whatsername.

then nurture your friend gently into making up her own mind about stuff.

but i would also be tempted to have a word with the interloper/ volunteer and get to know her a bit better on her own. she'll be aware of the huge shared past you have with your friend and might be feeling a bit inadequate as a result - people show it in different ways

Nick - she's already talking about coming back for New Year, so I'll try that tack to try and persuade her to come on her own. I have to accept though that she is quite scared of travelling on her own after years of never being able to venture too far. So maybe I'll start with an evening or afternoon together when she's back here next week and build from there.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head that this other woman is maybe a bit insecure about our past together - I can see that she might feel that we've been talking a lot about things that she doesn't know about (eg my infertility problems, the surrogacy thing) and she's just trying to join in in a slightly cack-handed way. I can also see that she does really care about my friend and is helping her in a really practical way. So maybe building bridges is the answer.

But I will still keep a watchful eye on my friend, I think!

Bugger, I sadly think you are right, dittany - I've been desperately trying to pretend that its going to be OK, but I don't think it is. I can completely see how this can happen, the pattern of abuse just continues.

What would you do? I'm really worried that I will come across as also trying to control her by dictating her friendships.

She probably already has it, but could you give her one of those Warning Sign lists, and tell her that you're worried that she'll settle for the 8/10 bastard (because s/he's better than the 10/10 one). Plenty of people leave bad relationships and go into other bad ones, so maybe talk to her in that context, give her the list (printed maybe, or print it off in course of convo?), without specifically mentioning other woman.

And then separately (but not too separately) ask her about other woman. Question whether she often tells her to get changed etc. Are there parallels between any of her behaviours and ex-bastard's? If so, maybe point them out subtly.

Poor woman, she only wants a friend and a bit of support :(

Good plan, Elephants - will definitely try that. there are lots of parallels, but the behaviour of ex was so hideous towards the end that she's probably forgotten that some of this is exactly how it all started - she talks a lot about the DV, but not about the emotional abuse.

I am so so sad for her - she's so excited about her new life, and probably isn't seeing that she's walking straight into another nightmare. She really is very lonely - most of her old friends are like me and scattered across the globe, others have long given up on her, and she is an amazing woman with so much strength deep down.

Am honestly thinking about just giving her the money to pay for a deposit on her own place and tide her over for a short while - do you think this would be a bad idea? She has a job with this woman as a cleaner in her business, but I think she could get some work elsewhere if needed (although I will add in this woman's defense that she has a long history of employing women she's met in such circumstances accprding to other friends, and not a whiff of a hint of untoward behaviour re employment).

The money thing isn't intended to be patronising - she dug me out of a huge emotional hole when we were younger, so it could easily be presented as a "good deeds paid back" kind of thing.

I think it's very kind of you to offer the deposit money - in your shoes, if I could afford it, I like to think it's something I could do.

The other woman isn't treating your friend with respect, and for all the positive things she might offer from a practical perspective, that in itself is harmful.

OK, they are back in Bangkok now, so lets see how the next few days go. Friend certainly seems happy, but I brought up the subject of money for a deposit and the first few months rent for her own place last night and she's jumping at the offer, so suspect deep down she doesn't want this woman to be quite so all-pervasive in her life.

She's also coming back on her own in Jan.

But she did also say that the woman seemed really intimidated by me, and was unusually aggressive and defensive (her words), so asked me not to base my impressions about this woman on this one visit.

It's really weird and controlling.

Very weird that she looked down on you because of your so-called capitalist values . I mean that's not the sort of thing you can say to someone unless you're very close to them yourself, let alone someone you don't know, and in whose house you're staying. It's a "hypothetical" discussion, in light of the fact we live under capitalism and we're all trying to survive one way or another.

Is it a platonic relationship?
At least she's not with the ex, though. He sounds a lot worse!
It might be a type of re-bound relationship, the first person she could grab hold of.
Really good sign that she's coming back in Jan on her own

[Are there really people who know about Dworkin IRL??? I thought it was only on here. ]

About the money... I'd say no, don't do it...
Not for the money, but, how can I put it, she has to find her own way, and she would be beholden to you. And...sometimes when we try to help people it backfires in ways we least expect.
So, I would say just be there for her, help her, emotionally,but don't wrap yourself up in her finances as well. She needs a friend who can look at her life objectively, and advise accordingly. I don't know her, you do , but sometimes very needy people take more from us than we have to give, and that's not a character flaw in us, that's just because we're human.
BUt everybody's different. As I have 2 small children right now I would not be able to becom embroiled in somebody's problems because of the knock on effects on my family (stress, etc). BUt perhaps you are in a better position that me to help a very needy person right now. If so, then maybe you could help her financially

[sorry not helpful]