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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

577 replies

kickassangel · 27/09/2010 13:35

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

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zazen · 05/10/2010 00:29

I think we need to keep on trucking, and stop oiling this squeaky man.

I'm sure Larry gets off (or from) on the attention he gets here. Why else would he be so determinedly obtuse and pigheadedly ignorant. He's getting something out of our attentions.
There are plenty or resources he could look up to inform himself, but he chooses not to.

Let's just stop feeding him and maybe he'll go and live in RL for a while - maybe his pregnant wife and their 15 month old would be thankful to see him? Maybe not.. who knows?
Maybe she'd rather have a new microwave..

marenmj · 05/10/2010 01:02

Actually, there are plenty of times that I really wish the Feminism topic didn't show up in Active Conversations. I think there are a fair few who wander in from there to stir up trouble, and a small few who claim to have done but really just seem to cruise the threads (as they show up on every single one).

mathanxiety · 05/10/2010 02:11

No, there's no way Feminism should have to go around hiding its light under a bushel. It's relevant, it's for all, it needs to be here for everyone to see.

Sakura · 05/10/2010 04:01

PMSL at the "libel" comment...
God, can people not think of anything more original than sueing feminists for libel

larrygrylls · 05/10/2010 07:20

OK, enough of this.

It is as the french would say: une dialogue aux sourds.

I cannot believe that people have been up all night going through various things that I have posted and trying to discredit me personally, rather than discussing the posts on this thread. Well, fair enough.

Mathanxiety,

You stoop particularly low in your analysis of my use of compound verbs. Yes, my command of English is good enough but, you know, occasionally, when not thinking, I even use "less" instead of "fewer". To "take something off someone" is colloquial for to take something from them.

Then we have someone who questions my support of bf because I view it more from a scientific/nutritional perspective. Well, if you had had a baby on the 0.4th centile, you might understand. Then again, perhaps not. If you see everything through the lens of academic feminism, it becomes impossible for you to believe a man has an interest in anything or takes any action for any motive other than to perpetuate his privilege.

And, as for the poster who decided that women who CHOOSE to wear awful slogans on their t shirts are analagous to Jews wearing yellow stars. As a Jew who lost relative in the Holocaust, what am I meant to respond?

I have genuinely learnt some things from some posters on here but, though I have a strong constitution, I have had enough of the bile and scorn poured on me.

Please do not respond as I shall no longer be posting in the "feminism" section or reading it.

msrisotto · 05/10/2010 07:23

If only

sethstarkaddersmum · 05/10/2010 08:31

good.

dittany · 05/10/2010 09:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker · 05/10/2010 09:08

bye Larry Smile

sethstarkaddersmum · 05/10/2010 09:12

I missed the libel comment Sakura refers to so I went back and found it -

"Kickass,

"i also assumed the niece/god-daughter wasn't actually wearing the t-shirt at the time he removed it"

Any danger of an apology for that offensive suggestion or removing it from MN. Pretty close to libel, actually."

FGS! If you actually use the words 'took off her', a phrase which can mean either removed from someone's body or took away from them, it is pretty darn dim to then shout libel at someone for picking up on it. Particularly since Kickass specifically said she had assumed the first meaning wasn't what was meant.

Can you imagine in court:

'So Kickass inferred, without reason, that Larry might actually have removed the t-shirt from his god-daughter's body?'
'No Your Honour, she did not. He said he had.'
'I see.'
'May I also point out, your Honour, that Kickass did not state that Larry had removed the t-shirt from his god-daughter's body. She said he hadn't, that is, she had assumed the young lady was NOT wearing the t-shirt at the time when it was, ahem, taken off her.'
'I see. Mr Grylls, you appear to have libelled yourself. Case dismissed.'

(apols for blatant errors in courtroom procedure)

lemonmuffin · 05/10/2010 09:33

Please don't stop posting larry, sometimes you're the only one making any sense on these threads.

Beachcomber · 05/10/2010 09:42

Ah the enigmatic lemonmuffin who thinks my posts are appalling but never says why.

HerBeatitude · 05/10/2010 11:00

he's just so bloody dishonest isn't he ? i didn't question his support for breastfeeding i questioned his right to tell women who actually know about it, what the support from the NHS is like

StewieGriffinsMom · 05/10/2010 11:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StayFrosty · 05/10/2010 12:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kickassangel · 05/10/2010 13:43

ok.

sooo, i realise that i'm probably about 100 years behind all other feminists in my thinking, but i stumbled onto this thread cos i didn't know what cognitive dissonance was, and now you get to hear mythinking on these subjects!

anyway, every time i raise the issue of disparity between male & female pay, i hear the line that typical 'caring' jobs don't get paid as much because they don't produce a marketable commodity, ie they don't make a profit. so, i started thinking, well, perhaps we should look at the 'end product' of typical caring jobs. i was a teacher. my end product was an educated 16 or 18 year old. how much are they worth

funnily enough, society DOES put a value on that - it's called their salary. employment agencies take a % of the slary agreed when they place someone in a job - why shouldn't teachers get a % of their pupils' first salary?

of course, the system is rife with difficulties & would barely work in reality, but i have just had one of those lightbulb moments when i saw the 'link'. i've always known that preparing the next generation to be positive members of society is THe most important function within our society - after all, life would grind to a halt if we didn't achieve this, but i have only just realised how false the disconnect is between raising & educating them, and not giving sufficient reward to the people who do that.

i can't think of any other jobs where the reward (pay) goes to the end product (young adults) but not to the producers. put that into a factory concept - no-one would dream of paying the cardboard boxes that role off the production line - the money goes to the workers & owners who produced them & their contents. there are also many jobs where people don't produce something, simply enable others to, e.g. delivery & transport, yet these are still paid more than nursing, childcare, caring, teaching etc.

can't believe how long it has taken me to see the next step in the argument, but finally i have a come-back for the people who tell me that as a teacher i don't 'produce' anything!

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Sakura · 05/10/2010 14:08

yes, and that also applies to mothers kickarse. MOthers are seen as swamp life amoebas, parasites (if they're a SAHM), or just generally treated with contempt.
BUt the truth is nOt only have they created a life but they are putting their efforts into producing an 18 year old firing on all cylinders. MOthers need practical, emotional and financial help to do their job of mothering, help they do not get, most of the time.
MOthering is only ever noticed when mothers, for whatever reason, were unable to do their job. Then everybody notices mothering. The rest of the time, mothering is invisible

kickassangel · 05/10/2010 14:48

i do think a fair amount of fathering also goes unnoticed, and that, in general, parenting is vastly under-valued, UNTIL something goes wrong, then it's all the parents fault. the balance is still towards mothers rather than fathers, and i don't see a practical way to pay parents for their end result.

although, i think, in france, parents have their child benefit (or equivalent) stopped if their child is excluded from school - so, perhaps there are ways to financially benefit parents who produce the most 'marketable' children (like free higher education?)

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mathanxiety · 05/10/2010 16:40

So Larry, do you take off your socks or do you take from your socks?

And you misunderstood the yellow star reference completely, and willfully. I know your relatives were murdered in the Holocaust, as you have stated it often. To restate: the Jews of Europe were made to wear yellow stars that were meant to mark them as different or of lower status, 'untermenschen', to objectify them, to persecute them, to make their murder and all the other crimes perpetrated against them, including rape seem inconsequential because they didn't matter.

Yet this attempt at differentiation or objectivisation occurred only in the eyes of those who beheld them. It reflected the opinions of those in power. The Jews themselves were not any different just because of the badge they wore. People could choose to see them as the Nazis wanted to portray them or they could choose to see them as they always had, as neighbours, colleagues, friends, relatives, or as people who needed help -- the yellow stars didn't have the intended effect on those who tried to rescue the Frank family in Amsterdam for instance, and there were others (not nearly enough) who chose not to objectify the Jews either.

From an article entitled Queer Eyes and Wagnerian Guys; says it better than I can -- 'All symbolic objects are polysemous, their meanings shaped by the complicated network of references embedded in any given sociocultural system. Given this multivalent potential, a viewer has some power to ignore some meanings in favor of others. The choice between one set of meanings and another can be powerfully influenced by the cultural knowledge available to the viewer. The perspective that ascribes one set of values to a particular image for one person may differ radically from the values available for another person. Consequently, the understanding taken away from an image or object by a viewer well versed in the values of a particular subculture may differ radically from an understanding gained from the point of view of the dominant culture'

In the case of the Nazis, their own psycho-sexual problems, problems in their upbringing, and problems in the general culture of the German world wrt male identity led them to vilify homosexuals just as they targeted the Jews, deprive them of civil and human rights, incarcerate them in death camps and kill them. Nazism had a culture of hyper-masculinity;the 'Queer Eyes' article here details some of the sexual insecurities and homoeroticism of the Nazis themselves (their cognitive dissonance) and their presumably unintentional production of art and artifacts that appealed to the homoerotic in themselves and some of those they persecuted.

It takes only the beholder to make an object out of someone. It takes the choice of an observer to objectify uniformed Catholic schoolgirls, or women wearing stilettoes, or teenage girls wearing pretty much anything barring a misshapen potato sack and a brown paper bag over their heads (see the kiosks of used knickers). The choice is informed by the culture of the beholder.

I bet you're here all the same Larry.

It has come to my notice lately on MN due to the presence on many a thread of posters identifying themselves as men, not going to name names, who crash around like bull elephants and genuinely do not seem to share a common language with the (mainly) women who are there. The mind-blowing obtuseness has been quite a spectacle. I have been considering LG's experience of learning 'women's' Japanese in light of this -- something is being lost in the translation (funny enough a film set in Japan but that's neither here nor there...), some vital part of the apprehension and comprehension of experience is not happening. Even the reason women post the way they do, the terms they use and the problems they post about seem to cause umbrage and gross misunderstanding.

The Japanese woman may have been playing a huge practical joke, or she may have assumed LG knew without being told that the rules were different for men's and women's speech in Japanese, or LG may have assumed Japanese women have naturally high-pitched voices because men appeared to sound natural to him so therefore the women must also be using their natural voices. He seems to have picked up the derogatory terms men use for women yet failed to notice or pick up the terms women use for men, and thought therefore that there were none. He took what the teacher taught as gospel too -- are men more willing to accept received wisdom even if it sounds a little high pitched, than women are?

Are men more likely to suffer from cognitive dissonance than women are after the Feminist Revolution? It seems that some are in a state of distress at the alternative view of reality proposed by feminists, and that there is an active pushback going on in wider society that appeals to the worst instincts of humanity, as a result.

vezzie · 05/10/2010 17:35

Very interesting post Mathanxiety.

In the Pregnant Widow (by Martin Amis, of all unlikely people) one of the characters berates her mother and other feminists for fragmenting their message ? they should have simply stuck to the most important thing and insisted ?50 / 50 housework split? ? and bugger the rest. Our, ahem, ?hero? (a man of the 70s) admits that there must be something in that slogan as it makes him feel very uneasy. Not too uneasy, of course. No chance of it actually happening.

Wouldn?t it be lovely if all men asked themselves, honestly, what makes them feel so uneasy about feminism. Some do, of course. Some of them don?t crash around shouting their heads off in women?s conversations.

wastingaway · 05/10/2010 17:48

Very interesting thread still. Smile

mathanxiety · 05/10/2010 18:16

Further to my post, Larry, even if you're not here, it probably wouldn't make any difference...

What makes them uneasy about feminism is easily dismissed by the comforting thought that clearly some women are man-haters.

mathanxiety · 05/10/2010 22:37

And as for the scientific appreciation of breastfeeding, and all the medical benefits -- tell that to my mum, who was met with incredulity when she timidly asked for breastfeeding advice from her doctor while pregnant, and was told when I cried at 2 hour intervals to be fed, instead of the textbook four hourly intervals, that there was clearly something wrong with her milk and that formula was far superior for feeding babies. Then after she got that sorted by taking her mother's advice to ignore the doctors, she was told that she was risking my health by insisting on continuing past the absurd age of three months.

After you've finished with the scientific endorsement of breastfeeding, brace yourself for her opinion of 'science' and 'the medical establishment'. My mum and probably plenty of others went around feeling that what they were doing was indefensible thanks to the cod science and medical advice that prevailed back then. She didn't even bother trying with my two younger sisters, and she regrets it bitterly. It really blighted her experience of motherhood.

Science and medicine bombarded women for decades with the message that formula was ideal for babies, and even still the growth charts used to convince mothers that their babies are not gaining are those developed with formula fed babies in mind. How ironic that now science has caught up with my granny back on the farm in Ireland. And her granny, and all the grannies who went before her...

kickassangel · 05/10/2010 23:06

math - i agree that it takes the viewer to assign the cultural interpretation of a sign, BUT, when in a society where there is a common understood value, then the person wearing a sign does know that they are sending a message to observers. whilst that doesn't make it ok for women to be raped because of a t-shirt slogan, it does send a message that the girl is displaying her more overtly sexual side.

other examples would be the wearing of baseball caps by american street gangs, different colours & the direction that the peak was pointing, denoted the gang that a teenager was part of, therefore US schools started banning baseball caps at school, even during lunch/recess, as they were a sign that provoked others.

another example is when i taught in an all boys school in leeds. when doing a lesson on symbols, i held up a piece of red paper & asked what it stood for - 'scum' was the dominant answer. cos in that culture, red = man u = scum. (back in the day that leeds were rivals to man u.) so, any lad wearing a man u t-shirt on non-uniform days knew it was provocative. of course, he should have been able to wear it, without risking being beaten up, but they all knew what would happen.

it is vv hard to know where to draw the line - people should be able to express themselves freely, but we live in a world where judgements are made & we all know that.

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