is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

[kickassangel]

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

Beachcomber

Fair enough.

I think a female posted earlier that, in a utopian society, you should be able to leave a wallet stuffed full of 50s on a table in a bar and come back a few hours later and get it. But it would be pretty stupid to do so.
But to leap from that to the idea of advising someone about looking after their valuables is a "burglary apologist" is just silly.

I do not personally know any rapists (at least to the best of my knowledge) and have no idea what motivates them. I also suspect that to be true of a lot of people who post authoritatively here on the subject.
I have no idea how the "up for it" culture espoused by some females affects a rapists mindset. However, unless you have done real research on real rapists, nor do you. To understand, however, is not to excuse. For instance I can UNDERSTAND why Jamie Bulger's killers did what they did due to their background etc, but I cannot EXCUSE it. So, to understand what motivates a rapist is not to EXCUSE the crime or to not want to see that person punished. That is as well as I think I can put it.

I also have posted some things on boards which I have subsequently regretted, normally crass analogies to make a point. They have often been in return for some pretty vile ad hominem attacks on me. Not really an excuse but I am human and this is an internet message board, not my societal thesis.

"What a weird idea about children's bodies being their own? So, a 7 year old WOULD have a right to refuse a medical exam or a vaccination. Or your 13 year old daughter would have a RIGHT to sleep with a 40 year man should she desire to (even if illegal for him). Children's rights come in at different ages and like all rights, come with responsibilities."

You are ignoring the bit where I said "as and when that becomes age-appropriate and they'll make the "right" choices". So your silly examples of vaccinations and being abused by old men have already been dealt with.

"And again, would you allow your male teenage son to wear a "rape apologist" T shirt because "his body is his own"?"

And again, I thought I'd dealt with that: "Of course, you can discuss why things are shit, there's nothing wrong with that..."

If my teenaged DS wanted to wear a rape apologist t-shirt, then I would discuss with him why that is shit. I would point out all the arguments that are standard plus pointing out the ones that aren't as well known, such as that given that 1 in 4 women are raped, mostly before the age of 18, he is very likely to be acting as a trigger for any girl he comes across - by the age of 16, it is likely that in any group of girls in a club he comes across, one of them will have been raped or have a friendship with someone who has been raped. More will have been sexually assaulted. He will be aware of all this, I'll make sure he is.

If he then chooses to be a twat and go out with a t-shirt which he knows will upset and offend and possibly act as a trigger for someone who hasn't yet worked through her rape experience, then frankly I will have done a bloody bad job as a mother in terms of engendering empathy and decency in my DS. However, I won't be removing the t-shirt from him - that will be doing a crap job as a mother as well. By the age of 16, he is legally old enough to get married and join the army. FFS, he has got to be old enough to take responsibility for his clothing choices and if he's not, then I've not done my job IMO.

I feel the same as if he were wearing a swastika t-shirt btw. The difference with that, is that someone might beat him up for doing so, so he's less likely to wear it for his own self-preservation.

Oh and there is plenty of research done on rapists and what motivates them. It's all out there if you care to look for it.

Is the figure of 1 in 4 woman are raped, for the Uk? Or is it world wide. It is a staggering number.

Sorry it's raped or sexually assaulted. UK afaik, not sure about the worldwide figure (but someone on here will know...)

IN Japan, you can leave your wallet anywhere and it won't get knicked. I'm scatty and I've lost my handbag so many times when the kids were playing up. IT was always handed in at the shopping mall information centre.
Streets are V safe, women walk their dogs alone at midnight, I don't bat an eyelid at going to the laundrette at midnight.

It's a socialist society: they only have a middle class.

I just wanted to piss on Larry's defunct point that socalism is irrelevant to feminism

Sakura,

In Japan you can buy "used schoolgirl knickers" in the subway.

In Japan underage girls can join a texting club where they can meet middle aged salarymen and get bought designer goods in return for sex.

Japan is one of the most sexist societies in the World with hardly any women in position of power and where, when a woman marries, she is expected by her employer to leave work.

You have picked a strange model for your utopia!

Ah, and yet again, you misunderstand. Quelle suprise!

I did not say leaving your wallet anywhere was the definition of Utopia.
I said your "leaving wallet" scenario already exists, and it is the result of socialist policies which have, in many ways, worked out well for women.

But that is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to patriarchy. Japan is steeped in patriarchy and heavily influenced by capitalism

In other words, god help Japanese women if they didn't have socialist policies in place.

Patriarchy sucks

Sakura,

Japan is just not socialist! I do not know where you get your ideas from. There is minimal government assistance and minimal public health. That is why the Japanese prefer to put their savings into government bonds that yield nothing rather than spending them, leading to a 20 year recession.

Japan does have a much narrower income distribution than UK, U.S but the corporate sector is far more powerful. In addition, maybe you live in a City, but I have read there is a huge poverty problem in rural areas.

Japanese is, in itself, a sexist language with women having to speak in a higher voice and their vocabulary itself being respectful of men.

"Japan does have a much narrower income distribution than UK, U.S"

Yup, it certainly does. A C.E.O cannot earn more than 6 times the lowest earner in the same company. IN the US, it's over 240 times.

Japan is one, if not the most egalitarian society in the world.

I live in a southern, rural area

Japanese is not a sexist language. The word hito refers to human being. The word for man is otoko and for woman onna.
The notion of using the word otoko to describe all humanity would be as unthinkable as using the word onna to do so.
And yet that is what English does

I wasn't aware that we lived in a burglary culture where burglary myths are rife and victims of burglary are routinely disbelieved and persecuted and blamed for being burgled. I didn't realise that we live in a burglar dominated society with burglars setting the rules for what does and does not constitute burglary. I didn't realise burglary was a crime which predominately happened in the context of a dominant group targeting a non-dominate section of society.

Larry I think you should give up on the analogies TBH. You seem to miss the mark with every one you use - probably because you are coming from a point of patriarchy denialism and male privilege obliviousness.

Trying to draw conclusions about rape using burglary as an analogy is ridiculous and offensive. (And crass as it harks back to women being chattels and rape being a crime against another man's property.)

Brilliant post, beachcomber

NOw, can we please stop allowing Larry's male privilege, awarded to him at birth by patriarchy, to dominate the direction of all the threads he's on

Sakura,

You definitely have me at a disadvantage here BUT I was taught Japanese for several years by an elderly Japanese lady. All my male Japanese colleagues then laughed at me because I sounded like a woman...

I have found a nice article though, where Japanese women were interviewed and asked about sexism in Japanese. What do you make of these phrases?

The kanji (Chinese character) for yome consists of the female radical and a character for home and family, which implies that a woman is expected to be a commodity of a household. (39-year-old office worker)

Yome signifies that a married woman becomes the property of her husband and in-laws. (55-year-old speech therapist).

Whenever I hear the expression katazukeru, I wonder why daughters not sons are subjected to disposal. (45-year-old part-time interpreter)

Even though oku-san is commonly used, I don't like its implication that married women are supposed to stay home. (41-year-old office worker)

It is discriminatory as well as offensive that there are no corresponding terms of gusai and akusai for stupid and bad husbands. Similarly, despite the fact that wives are more often affected by their husbands' misconduct than the other way round, there is no corresponding phrase of akusai wa isshho no husaku. (71-year-old homemaker)

The third most frequently listed word was umazume (stone woman) referring to infertile women.

Umazume represents a lingering belief that childless women are not complete, which I find extremely offensive. Although umazume is now obsolete, it is not men but women who are still thought to be responsible for infertility. (30-year-old homemaker).

I find onna datera ni offensive because it denies the potential of women as well as sets a limit to their sphere of activity. (49-year-old assistant professor)

What's your point Larry?

Almsot everything on that list exists in English.

'Housewife' is as offensive as 'yard nigger' [copyright GG]

There are plenty of derogatory words for men coined by women in the Japanese language. Sodai gomi literally refers to large, cumbersome rubbish that's difficult to get rid of in the house (an old microwave, for example). It's commonly used for a retired husband who does not lift a finger around the house.

Beachcomber,

Kickassangel posted the below:

"after all, i know that if i left my handbag by the side of the road, with money easily visible, and walked off, then it is HIGHLY likely that my belongings will be stolen. in theory, we should live in a society which is honest enough that i could do that, but it would be v naive to assume that, so i do modify my behaviour (a very minor example of cog. diss.)

similarly, i don't go out wearing clothes that display/highlight my sexuality, flirt, chat, get drunk, tell guys i'm a great shag, and walk home alone singing 'i feel so horny'. in theory, i should be able to do that without some guy getting the wrong signals, but it would be naive to assume that i could behave like this without at least some unwelcome advances."

Crass analogy or fair enough if a fellow woman makes it?

so if you saw a woman doing those things, what would you do?

Sorry should have been clearer - it was this bit that I found offensive and crass;

"But to leap from that to the idea of advising someone about looking after their valuables is a "burglary apologist" is just silly."

But then you found the excellent article on rape culture I linked to earlier 'too simplistic' which suggested to me that the whole concept is going over your head.

Your post is showing real ignorance of what rape culture, rape myths and rape apology are through your use of a 'burglary apologist' argument. Burglary apology is a silly concept - rape apology is not (but you would have to understand the terms rape culture and rape myths in order to be able to understand that).

I don't want to speak for Kickassangel but I understood her post as saying - I should be able to do what I want and not be sexually harassed but the unpleasant fact is that in a patriarchy I cannot.

She wasn't equating burglary apology with rape apology, in terms of social phenomenon, in the ridiculous way that you are.

I should have explained it better.

Not sure I'm explaining it well now actually.

I guess what I mean is that because 'burglary apology' is silly ergo rape apology is silly, is offensive and ridiculous in our current culture.

People shouldn't rob and people shouldn't rape and others shouldn't have to protect themselves against these these things, is neither silly nor offensive.

There is a programme on Radio 4 this evening called Sex Porn & Teenagers which from the trail I heard just now seemed to be implying that young women are disassociating from sex in order to be socially included.

I'm sure it will be horrifying (but interesting) listening.

Oh yes I must remember to listen to that LB.

Someone please do a reminder thread in case I'm farting about here!

I'll do one if I remember it first...

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