is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

[kickassangel]

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

actually, i would assume that during WW2 was a period when many people suffered cognitive dissonance v strongly. there were a lot of german people who 'sort of' knew what was going on, but tried to rationalise it, or ignore it, just to keep themselves alive.

whilst i do think we suffer under patriarchy (men too), i do think that at least we are living in a situation where we can discuss this. ideas are important, as is discussing them.

Kickass - I think it might still be going on in germany to an extent. People have still got grandparents alive of whom they would never ask "what did you do in the war?" because no-one wants to know :( There must be a lot of families where everyone is pretending that grandpa has been e.g. a postman all his life and that everything is hunky dory.

i know, and while it doesn't make it ok when i find myself wondering about the injustices in our societies, i do think 'thank goodness' because it could be a lot worse.

there's nothing wrong with counting our blessings, as long as we don't then start resting on our laurels & assuming that life is perfect, just because it isn't horrific.

I think a lot of people have cognitive dissonance when they walk around Tesco.
Deep down they know none of the food was grown in their own country, they know it was grown by poor people, somewhere in the third world, that the supermarket collaborates with third world governments to oppresses and exploit women...and yet they just keep shopping. I do too.
If cognitive dissonance were to dissappear TONIGHT women would be picketing the supermarkets, or parliament

sooo, if there were no cognitive dissonance or if we could overcome it & speak/act freely, then what would the world be like?

(am thinking of some v silly examples now)

chaotic, at first
But in time, if every single woman refused to succumb to cognitive dissonance, better, eventually

I think that's why the anti-feminist men come on here attacking us. Perhaps in some ways it's hard knowing you belong to a class or group of people (men) who commit so many atrocities on human beings on a daily basis. I can understand why some men prefer to block it out and pretend feminists are loonies. Other men just enjoy attacking and hurting women, though

Good point Sakura.

I think you are right - it is so much more palatable to many people (both men and women) to think that feminists are extreme man hating loonies rather than face up to the reality that women are treated badly in a patriarchal society and that that treatment is normalized.

So much easier to call the feminists nasty bullies who want to control other women, rather than challenge the stauts quo and relinquish some privilege/take on the patriarchy.

This might sound odd but often if someone says that I'm being rude, unpleasant, bullying, ranty, shrill, extreme, unreasonable, yada, yada, yada, I think I'm getting something right. Feminism makes lots of people uncomfortable because it constantly holds a mirror up to their cognitive dissonance and shouts 'bullshit'.

(I mean in the context of feminist discussions - am v polite nicey person in most contexts.)

Mathanxiety,

"After all, in postwar Germany, despite the fact that a huge number of German combatants had been killed in action (especially in the East, where they had managed to murder millions of civilians, Poles, Jews, Soviet citizens) quite a few though certainly and very shockingly not all of the SS and Holocaust organisers arrested, tried and hanged, and yet a programme of deepseated re-education was undertaken so that the German people as a whole would take responsibility for their actions, their government's actions, and the actions of their dead relatives, neighbours and friends, and commit to never allowing the name of Germany or Germans to be associated with evil like that again. There have been problems in Germany with actually bringing perpetrators of the Holocaust to justice, with some former SS guards and other personnel living out their lives unmolested and some even doing well in the postwar period, but in the main, German culture has done an about-turn as a result of the concerted effort to admit communal responsibility and shoulder individual responsibility to live consciously as people who reject Nazism, militarism and oppression"

That is indeed a v interesting response and has certainly given me pause for thought.

However, I still believe, even being part of a group that clearly was oppressed, that individuals have to take responsibility for what they do, and that there is no such thing as "communal" responsibility. Otherwise, I would have to believe that every person who was not actively campaigning against the mass state sanctioned rape and effective genocide which has reduced the Zimbabwean population by 30-40% in effect condoning it. I don't believe that. I believe that most people just have their own lives to lead and no-one can actively campaign against every wrong.

Sakura,

Cognitive dissonance going around Tescos even though, in your own words, you know that a lot of them are produced by underpaid workers in the third world?? Sounds like you, like the rest of us, are just being selfish and don't care enough to take a principled stand and would prefer cheap and convenient food. Fair enough but why not take personal responsibility for it rather than trying to blame cognitive dissonance.

I would have to believe that every person who was not actively campaigning against the mass state sanctioned rape and effective genocide which has reduced the Zimbabwean population by 30-40% in effect condoning it.

Sorry, missed an "is" out between the "40%" and the "in".

Yes, that's a good way to measure it, Beachcomber. Dittany has had people signing up to MN just to post bile at her. ONly trust a feminist that men [or society ] don't like and actively ridicule, I say.

Interestingly, there was a thread on here about ladyGaga, about how men attack her on web-forums. She's not a feminist, but she does some weird non-conformist things, like wears crows on her head and men seem to be getting disgruntled that she's not that stereotypical titillating female performer

or not "only trust" but " you can definitely trust" rather

I love the way Dittany just doesn't give a shit about being considered 'nice' in feminist discussions (of course she is very nice indeed but just points out other people's bullshit in an uncompromising way).

Really when you think about it would you rather fight for equality and freedom or be considered a 'naice laydee'? No competition!

It is one of the problems for women though, we are so used to being nice, caring, thinking about other's needs - it doesn't come easily to many of us to start shouting 'bullshit' in an uncompromising way.

Someone's got to do it though or we'll never get anywhere. It is quite liberating that moment when you start to not feel bothered if people think you are being a 'nasty extreme feminist'.

I do think it is a very manipulative thing to say though in a political discussion, especially if the person doesn't actually address the views expressed - really it is just ad hominem.

Yes, it's like that history thread. It's a way of trying to tie women's hands behind their back. If you don't complain, there's obvious no problem; If you do complain you're a shrill man-hating yada yada and therefore cannot be taken seriously.
It's a good control tactic for but I'm always bemused when the acusers appear to actually believe their own hype

I think it happens on a personal level as well though. I was posting on another thread where the OP is heavily pregnant and her partner is out every night and all weekend etc. Another poster contributed saying that for him, his wife's endless patience (rather than complaining) made him see the error of his ways in not spending enough time with her etc. And I just thought - that's great for you, but where does it leave women who are really having a problem? If you say nothing about it, you get (rightly IMO) complaints that if you don't mention a problem, how can it be dealt with. But if you do say something about it, you are shrill, whiny & nagging. And the brilliant part about it is, the one causing the problem doesn't have to do a single thing. Because just by pointing it out, the woman is already in the wrong.

I'm not joking but I think I literally read this in "The Angel in the House" (19th century vomfest).

Yes men inform, women nag.....

So it's the same with feminism. We are told that being feminists is pointless, writing letters to the papers or our MPs or boycotting things is pointless, going to rallies is pointless - basically things will change when they're good and ready due to economic factors/political expedience/the phase of the moon. So really we should all sit on our hands and stop complaining and be "patient".

But patience rarely changes anything - it should be obvious from the fact that it took literally centuries to gain suffrage etc. Being a wallflower is not - to put it mildly - a powerful technique. And in fact advising this in the first place is a measure of women's lack of power: be patient and big daddy will come and make things better soon.

So when being patient and doing nothing leads to nothing changing (as any scientist could predict), and we make a noise, we are in the wrong just by having the presumption to mention it. Who hasn't had people react to some feminist comment of their with a disgusted look or a derogatory comment?

We are not in the wrong to try to change things, and people calling us "nags" or "whingers" or accusing us of trying to push things "too far" - well they're just adopting the language of the man who is terrified that he might have to give up a night at the pub in order to put his baby to bed.

"Fair enough but why not take personal responsibility for it rather than trying to blame cognitive dissonance."

Precisely. That is what being a feminist is all about.

Yep, shaking off the cognitive dissonance and trying to see straight. Not always easy whether it's housework or bananas, but we need to try.

"We are told that being feminists is pointless, writing letters to the papers or our MPs or boycotting things is pointless, going to rallies is pointless"

When men people say that to me, I say: "so do you think feminists should turn to terrorism then? Would that be more effective, d'you think?"

And then they start blathering.

Like it HerBeatitude - bit like Dworkin with the kitchen knives.

Ahem yes. I am constantly afraid that something I say on here will be taken and quoted out of context to illustrate some bollocks.

"No-one's saying all men are rapists" becomes "all men are rapists" for example.

yes good point Lenin, they will be passing this thread around saying 'I can't believe anyone thinks this is a joke. These feminists mean despite the fact that I have no evidence for this assertion whatsoever every word they say.'

Yes, we must never joke because of the Secret Feminist Conspiracy means that it's not funny. And yet somehow we are "humourless" if we don't RO the bloody FL at rape jokes etc.

Oh shit, didn't think about that. Of course, as everyone knows feminists are humourless and not quite sane, we must be serious with this talk of terrorism and kitchen knives.