is there a new cognitive dissonance thread?

[kickassangel]

if so, please link, i can't find it.

if not, i'd like to add some things

using personal experience to prove a point is not a great argument. we have to start with the bigger picture, then see personal experiences as a case study which exemplifies, but does not prove a point.

i'm not even sure that i view myself as a feminist. i view myself as someone who believes in equality (not just on male/female issues). the generalisations about feminism being a religion i find offensive, as they both ignore the patriarchal society we live in (and this assertion can be backed up by endless statistics & experiences), and assume that one particular viewpoint is religious.

is marxism a religion? what about other schools of thought?

feminism is a broad range of thought, and there will be changes and shifts within the arguments, just as there are in other sociological concepts. and there will be women who abuse, just as there are men who do so.

however, look at the structure of society, and it is impossible to say that it isn't patriarchal. just look at the possession of wealth, the media representation of people, the male/female ration in positions of power.

if it was as simple as some women 'not bothering' to push themselves forward, there would still be enough women to fill 50% of all key positions in society, and to hold 50% of the wealth, but that isn't what happens. so, it sin't due to a lack of women exerting themselves, it is due to the inherent sexism within society.

Larry can't you see that the male hormones, innate aggression argument, is perilously close to saying that all men are potential rapists/warmongers and they just can't help it?

If I were a man I would feel very strongly against that.

With regards to the statement 'men are responsible for rape' - if we disagree with this statement then who or what is responsible for rape? Something or someone must be.

Perhaps a better way to put it would be that;

'in a male dominated society rape is tolerated and committed by those in the dominant position. That is not to say that all of those who dominate, tolerate or commit rape. However the end result is that society as a whole tolerates rape of those in a non-dominant position. Those who dominate this society have more power and influence to change this situation, if they do not exercise this power they must carry responsibility for their lack of action and condoning of the current rape culture.'

Or something like that.

Dworkin puts it much better in her speech.

Thanks Beachcomber, will have a read too.

I'm confused larry, I've just searched the thread and the only people who have said tha "bald statement" are you, or people directly quoting you.

Men who rape are responsible for rape.

Men who don't rape but tolerate "rape-friendly" ideas (e.g. that t-shirt being funny, films like observe & report, rape jokes etc) are responsible for creating a climate in which rape becomes downgraded in seriousness as the very word loses its meaning.

Men who don't rape but repeatedly call into question the testimony of those who have been raped, on the basis of nothing more than a personal groundless disbelief, are responsible for making it harder for rape victims to come forward, and thereby assist in letting rapists get away with it.

Men who don't rape but who will sit in the House of Commons and allow female MPs to do all the work to try and improve rape conviction rates, are responsible for perpetuating the idea that rape is a "women's issue" that men need not think about.

I was writing a post,but Beachcomber has put it better.

Actually "christians were responsible for the holocaust" is just the analogy that I was looking for.

As an individual christian I don't see that you should feel personally responsible for the holocaust.But you might well feel that it was your responsibility to take steps to ensure that the church of which you were a part did not stand by while another holocaust occurred.

Elephants I think the 'men are responsible for rape' bold statement was in response to your post of Wed 29-Sep-10 00:15:21.

Great posts Beachcomber & Pogle.

I was reading something about men in the women's suffrage movement, and was really struck by this as an example of what men can do:

"It is impossible to rate too highly the sacrifices that [the men in the movement] made to keep our movement free from the suggestion of a sex war."

Pogleswood,

As a Jewish person by descent, I certainly would not expect christians in particular to make a special effort to make sure that it never happened again. And, I would not want it taught in schools to young christians that they were responsible for the death of 6 million people.

I think that the capacity of people to do good and bad things is inate in all of us and we need to look at a detailed analysis before apportioning blame.

Beachcomber,

"Larry can't you see that the male hormones, innate aggression argument, is perilously close to saying that all men are potential rapists/warmongers and they just can't help it?"

Well, not really. If I had grown up different circumstances, maybe abused as a child and not taught right from wrong, maybe I would have been a rapist. But I wasn't. I was lucky to have been brought up with moral values and I hope I can channel my innate aggression into doing the best I can for my family. People have certain innate qualities due to both hormones and genes. I do not think that is terribly controversial. However, as human beings, we have evolved beyond merely acting at the behest of our hormonal drives.

That's a great quote Elephants.

And so true - every man who joins the movement shows that this is a fight for equality and not a fight against men.

I sometimes quote a certain male blogger partly because I think it helps to challenge the stereotype of the man hating shrill hairy 'all men are rapists' feminist.

People do sit back and see things differently not just because it is the voice of a man (although this does play a part too) but because the male voice challenges so many of the myths of what feminism really is about.

Larry you seem to be labouring under the idea that all rapists are disturbed highly deviant people of a criminal nature.

You brought the subject up so I'm interested in what you would say in answer to this;

"With regards to the statement 'men are responsible for rape' - if we disagree with this statement then who or what is responsible for rape? Something or someone must be."

Although am off out now so not ignoring any responses.

"With regards to the statement 'men are responsible for rape' - if we disagree with this statement then who or what is responsible for rape? Something or someone must be."

That is the equivalent of the bald statement I discussed in an earlier post:

Men commit rape.

As I said, it is literally true but says no more about men than "christians were responsible for the holocaust" tells you about the general state of christianity today

Who is to blame. Well, the individuals are responsible for their own actions. But then you have to look at society and the absence of strong paternal role models (particularly true in certain sections of society) among other things. However, there is no simple answer as to a "who".

Did you see my post of 14:11:14? I am trying to break down that statement of yours.

"I would not want it taught in schools to young christians that they were responsible for the death of 6 million people"

I think that was my point,larry?

I did wonder if that would missfire as an analogy,but I was trying to distinguish individual responsibility for something that you have done yourself,from the more generalised responsibility you might have by association with a group of which you were a member.

"However, as human beings, we have evolved beyond merely acting at the behest of our hormonal drives".
Yep - and just because primitive man,or the great apes, behaved in a certain way that doesn't mean that we are compelled to behave like that now.
not implying anyone here is - just that I agree

Whoops - didn't mean to "bold" that - just wanted asterisks...
Must go and do school run...

Elephants,

If you are speaking to me, I did see it.

I just do not think that rape has lost its meaning, although clearly I can only speak of myself and the circle that I move in. It is a word that elucidates horror in most who hear it.

But then there is a generation of girls who go around in t shirts saying things like "I'm juicy, bite me" (this was one I took off my goddaughter). Of course, they have every right to wear them and I am NOT saying that this is any excuse for rape. However, if you talk about the cheapening of sex in general and rape in particular, are they not also responsible for creating that climate in society?

I think how we change the law/prosecution etc is being considered. However, we have to be careful to not allow an accusation to become a fact in law, without a trial. Anyone accused of any crime, however heinous, has a right to a trial before his peers, with no assumptions. Some of the judges are pretty crass on that subject but they are often old and a throwback to the time when sexism and misogyny were rife. Over time they will retire and be replaced with men and women with more reasonable views.

C'mon Larry, you're hedging.

"Men commit rape.

As I said, it is literally true but says no more about men than "christians were responsible for the holocaust" tells you about the general state of christianity today"

The Holocaust was a fairly exceptional (and horrifying) event in the history of humans. Christians today neither participated in nor condoned this event.

Rape is not confined to the passages of history yet - it is an everyday occurrence in every country in the world and it is currently easily tolerated in male dominated society. Rape myths and rape culture are everywhere in the current male dominated society.

The day rape becomes a thing of history books your Holocaust analogy might have some meaning.

Beachcomber,

Wish I could say anti-semitism was confined to history but both I and my family still come across it (not often, but enough) and I am not even a practising jew. It is quite insidious. Anyway, that is definitely off topic although I think my analogy does work albeit imperfectly.

But you weren't talking about anti-Semitism in current society. You were talking about an historical event.

I think trying to draw parallels between the experience of the Jewish people as a group defined by culture and religion, and women as a group defined by sex is going to be full of pitfalls TBH.

I find it more helpful myself to look at what is actually happening to real women in the real world.

Larry show me where anyone has been campaigning for "accusation to become a fact in law, without a trial."

You are half-right, there was an investigation going on into police handling of rape cases, til the govt cut it due to lack of funds.

surely it's on the Secret Militant Feminist Agenda? if not I think we should add it.

'Are you really saying because men are CAPABLE of raping and a small percentage of men criminally abuse that physical capability, all men should take responsibility for it and we should try and change society?'

I think this is a really positive suggestion Larry, and I believe it would have a really serious impact for the better on the lives of women, and on men too. What better way to improve the upbringing of boys than to have strong role models condemning rape, taking its effects on women seriously, taking the criminality of it seriously, and making efforts to speak up against it?

After all, in postwar Germany, despite the fact that a huge number of German combatants had been killed in action (especially in the East, where they had managed to murder millions of civilians, Poles, Jews, Soviet citizens) quite a few though certainly and very shockingly not all of the SS and Holocaust organisers arrested, tried and hanged, and yet a programme of deepseated re-education was undertaken so that the German people as a whole would take responsibility for their actions, their government's actions, and the actions of their dead relatives, neighbours and friends, and commit to never allowing the name of Germany or Germans to be associated with evil like that again. There have been problems in Germany with actually bringing perpetrators of the Holocaust to justice, with some former SS guards and other personnel living out their lives unmolested and some even doing well in the postwar period, but in the main, German culture has done an about-turn as a result of the concerted effort to admit communal responsibility and shoulder individual responsibility to live consciously as people who reject Nazism, militarism and oppression.

I love the fact that larry has put this idea forward as an outlandish suggestion, and we've all gone "well, yes actually".

I'm sure a lot of white people in America, for example, had to stand up and do their part in ending racial segregation. It's been known for members of a dominant group to use their relative power to change society for the better.

Can women, alone, improve rape conviction rates etc? No and thousands of women have been trying for generations.

Can men, alone, improve rape conviction rates etc? Yes and they need to pull their fingers out and get on with it TBH.

I was thinking wrt accusation becoming a law without trial - I can't think where that's happened before. Oh yes: <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=waterboarding.org/files/waterboarding/images/Ducking_stool.png&imgrefurl=waterboarding.org/node/27&h=432&w=600&sz=190&tbnid=X8RXgZE4wO1YkM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dducking%2Bstool&zoom=1&q=ducking+stool&usg=__7wxABWE5yROLglXXiicjfsAmniE=&sa=X&ei=2LKkTJOCGoak4Qb05ejYDQ&ved=0CBsQ9QEwAA" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this

great post Mathanxiety.

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