Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

Yes grannie. I'm feeling so much more in control and actually happier with my SAHMdom than before this thread, having acknowledged that there has been some cognitive dissonance at work.

Now I know what I'm fighting against in my personal life, as well as what I see objectively in the wider world.

.

Footlong, I am expressing standard feminist views here. You told me I thought the way I did was because i had a fucked up chidlhood. Bitter at gender issues or something. I can't be bothered searching for the quote. Perhaps my childhood was fucked up, and yours wasn't. Perhaps my life is fucked up, and yours isn't. Nobody is disputing any of those things. I am musing over to what extent me being female has contributed to me being unhappy in my marriage and you being male has contributed to you being happy in yours.
Extensive research shows that statistically you are going to be happy and that I am not. Because you're male and I'm female. THis is what is under discussion here.

I think sunny had interesting views, I just think they're at odds with my views.

Her view is: just try, compromise a bit more. That was her advice to me. I don't need her advice because her marital set up is not equal. I personally would have left if I was in her shoes, doing all the cookin and cleaning after caring for eight children all day the way she does because her husband is too "tired". I don'T think sunny is in a position to talk about cognitive dissonance. I think she should stop doing the housework and cooking and see what happens.

I do believe her when she says she's happy (although I would be hitting the bottle every night if I had her life) but I don'T understand why she's giving me advice about my marriage. I think in order for sunny to be happy she has to enjoy the shitwork and she has already admitted she doesn't mind it. So there we go. Now if her husband had married a woman who did mind doing all the shitwork, sunny might not have much to contribute to this thread.

footlong has thrown a few insults at me in this thread, but this has to be my favourite:

"Footlong Tue 21-Sep-10 02:09:02
Sakura -
Your posts just make you sound jealous of people who find happiness in a marriage. I know you will claim to be happy, and I dont blame you for being in denial. But I think the sooner you get over your obvious bitterness, the happier you will be. Have you recieved therapy for the way your dysfunctional upbringing has effected your ability in later life to handle gender issues?"

When a woman realises gender issues must be addressed, and accepts that, as a female, she was not raised with a male sense of entitlement, we call her a feminist.
ONe can perhaps say feminists usually don't suffer from cognitive dissonance. They are not in denial.
Footlong appears to be uncomfortable with the fact that he has found a thread, somewhere on the internet where someone is saying marriage is not good for women as a group. IF he is so confident I'm wrong (despite all the evidence) why does he have to insult me?

I'm more suprised that noone's picked up on Footlong's cognitive dissonance. In his first post he came on saying his wife should be grateful she had a washing machine and that women who complained about their marriage were spoilt. I rather think single women in their fifties are spoiled rotten and married women in their fifties who do all their husband's shitwork are to be pitied.
So here again, we have two opposing views. It's all good, I like robust debate. What I don'T like is people ignoring the discussion under question (cognitive dissonance) with stories about how great their marriage is.

I mean, some marriages are great. I believe it. I've seen it. BUt I'm 100% certain that the people in truly great marriages don't believe their marriage is perfect, or that they have anything to teach other people. OR, as in Footlong's case, attack anyone who doesn't go along with the idea that marriage is the ultimate in happiness for women.
True happy marriages are the exception to the rule. Pasting over the cracks, pretending it'S okay that the wife gets the bulk of the shitwork, for whatever reason, is not my definition of a happy marriage.
I do not do all the shitwork. Sunny does; I don't understand why she's on here giving me advice about my marriage. Everyone's marriage is different.

And to AnyFucker, I called Sunny smug after she departed the thread because I'd finally had enough of her pages and pages talking about how great her marriage was. What led her to leave the thread was the realization that everything that she'S got in her marriage, I've got in mine, and more, because my marriage is more equal. She didn't ask why I still wasn't happy despite the glaring fact that my marriage is fairer. Perhaps she left the thread because it was cutting too close to the bone?

I do think one possible solution for some women is not to live with men. I don't mean cutting them out of their DC's lives, just not living in the same house as them and therefore not having to service them (also, men who don't live with a woman will have to learn to pick up their own skiddy pants and get their own meals - or live in abject squalor with permanent indigestion and bad skin from non-stop takeaways and pot-noodles). Single mothers, particularly young ones, often seem to look to one another for support. childcare swapping etc with the babyfathers as visitors, and I thnk this can be a good thing.

Yes, That's a good idea. Now I've got over my cognitive dissonance I'm okay for a while, not desparate, but I'D love my own flat. I'D feel a bit guilty asking DH to move out considering he hasn't done anything wrong, just married a Woman Who Thinks Too Much. That's his only crime. I would wait until the kids are older though. For men it's different, though I think. It's all or nothing for them.

Lenin, since I started paying someone to take the baby for a few hours in the morning life has improved massively. I had to get over the idea that I was being a parasite to DH because I wasn't earning a wage. So many women go to work to get a "break" but I really wanted to raise my children myself.

Claig you are right on with what you are saying. That is exactly what I meant. Malifience I agree with you to. Also thanks to some other posters on the thread.

Deary me Sakura you seriously havent got a clue have you? You think all men are on triple figures and have boozy lunches whilst women are on the knees scrubbing floors. Get in the real world. You obviously do not have a clue what some people have to do to live and you definitely dont realise how there are millions of men out there who work so hard and so much for their families. I dont think you would notice as you have such a skewed idea of what many men do.

People shouldnt have to put up with someone not doing anything but I dont like the default idea from some posters on this thread that all men dont do shitwork and dont care. When so many do as shitwork comprises of so many things not just in the home but as you discuss 'boozy lunches and triple figures' I doubt you can comphrehend this.

SGB - Whilst there are single mums who have help and share childcare. I work with single mums who have limited support, some are being treated for depression, they have to come to us as they are struggling.

I see first hand the struggle that some single mums have so I know its not all perfect living for many. Single mums are often the most vulnerable, struggling group within society. They definitely are here and my job is working predominantly with vulnerable groups and they are nearly all single parents. I think it is very simplistic to think so many of these problems will be solved by everyone being a single parent. Obviously some people have no choice and its no fault of their own. Everyone should be allowed to choose how they want to live as well but I think its foolish acting like single parenthood is that simple as you dont have a man to pick up for as there is a multitude of other problems that go with that.

Many people struggle to live and in my job and in my area I see a lot of it. Regardless of whether they are single, cohabiting or married as having children can be difficult.

Yes, and one thing Lenin, you're not a man, so you don't have the male entitlement. DH is really good for a man but some men like Footlong would be outraged if their wife was a SAHM and the place was a tip and there was no dinner when they got back.

That's why I mentioned masculinity above. Having a SAHM or stay at home wife is a status symbol in masculine circles. WHen I realised DH was getting a LOT out of our deal, more than I had previously realised, I shelved the idea that he was doing me a favour by helping me stay at home with the kids. FOr many other reasons, including that one, I saw that being a SAHM does not mean someone has to do the shitwork.

My problem with cleaners is that it masks the problem of the husband not doing his share. Lots of men don't care which woman is doing is, as long as they're not. That's why I pay for childcare rather than a cleaner.

Sunny, sorry but you don'T have the first clue about my life, whether I am working class or not. I know I'm articulate, so you have created an idea in your head about who I am.
I come from a long line of working class women, who always earned more than their husband and done all the housework, so that has skewed my views somewhat. BUt this is not about men who work hard, it's about why married men are statistically likely to be happier than everyone, why single men are more likely to commit suicide than married men and why single women are happier than married women. You can't change the facts.

That sound a bit ,lenin...

Love Sakura's capitalisation of "Woman Who Thinks Too Much" - whenever my in-laws talk about me, I mentally picture them using such similar caps. Its all about TBOM "The Career Woman", and "Woman Who Speaks Her Mind" blah blah blah. Struck a real chord for me, Sakura!

I am starting to really feel sorry for you and your husband Sakura. :(

Sorry - that was to money on help being cheaper than dissolving your CP - now makes no sense at all...

THat's okay Footlong. I don't pity your wife at all