Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

[colditz]

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

As I told you, Footlong, my father told my mother she was lazy for taking care of his children for free and look what happened to him. Learn by other people's mistakes, not your own.

THat's okay Footlong. I don't pity your wife at all

Thats ok, I just checked and she said she was very happy with her life (actually I really did just ask her). I have no reason to think she is lying as all evidence in our relationship appears top back it up. And unlike your husband, her partner is not plotting and dreaming of a way to get rid of her. I dont resent her, and I treat her very well, and she treats me very well. We are far from perfect, but compared to how you describe your life.. I am very happy and relieved I married a mentally stable strong woman.

Footlong, ffs, that is so unhelpful and unnecessary, why did you feel the need to write that?

Rather sexist of you Lenin, after the all the things Sakura has said about me, you chose that comment to start your crusade againt mean comments? Interesting. You just let insults from females towards a male slide, but not vice versa? What about equality? DOnt worry Idont need your help, I just find this fascinating.. and rather insightful.

'DH is really good for a man'

God there is so much with this statement in my eyes. What if a man said your contribution in a traditionally male job said Sakura was alright for a woman. I dont see any difference between what you are saying and that statement.

Tell all the men they have male entitlement that have to go out all hours god sends doing work so they get limited time with their children doing back breaking, boring, mindless work for 45 - 50 hours a week. Then I know many men who do stuff like that and then go on and do a second job in their spare time. There are loads of men like that and I have lived in a variety of low waged places that I have seen doing that.

'I still think there is something in it all being so nuclear'

Nail on their head there Lenin. Communities have been lost, people are pitted against each other both people towards their own sex and towards their partners. Who has it worse? Who is a better parent? Who bottle fed/breast etc. Its perpetuated by the media and by capitalism because the more unfulfilled and unhappy you are the more you buy and waste to fill the gaps.

I very much believe this and I think people have bought in to it. It might be cheesy to say but it is those little things like talking to your neighbour or helping the young mum next door that make you feel good. Which is why so many people living extremely affluent lifestyles are so discontented. People dont trust other people as everythings a competition and people keep themselves to themselves. This is further perpetuated by moral panics eg your kids arent safe, men are paedos if they work with kids,there is dangers everywhere type of mentality. When things arent really that different from years ago.

I have no problem with women working if they choose in a high flying job but it is the media and capitalism that makes out SAHMS and people in non profit making jobs seem as if they are 'lesser'. Not the average man. Some men and women have fell for that attitude to.

Footlong, that is completely unnecessary, what is wrong with you?

Well according to Sakura .. an awful lot! But you seem to have ignored those posts.

@ cognitive dissonancers

sunny, you are using classic anti-feminist arguments, you just don't know it.

Searching for men who have it worse than women is not the point. Looking at the facts i.e married men score better in all areas of well-being is something that cannot be ignore and you keep ignoring it.

I totally agree with Lenin's point about the nuclear family causing problems. That is why I was telling sunny earlier up the thread that she shouldn'T compare her life to third world women and say she's got it easy. Third world women live in communities with extended families.

Good,Lenin - I'm glad that is you feeling upbeat - this is the problem with words on the screen,it's easy to misread as the tone of voice isn't there.

'DH is really good for a man'

I can only imagine the heat I would have recieved if I had posted that I thought my wife was really for a woman

Classic case of double standards, I cant wait to see how it justified.

I'll justify it by repeating [ad nauseum]

Married men score better in all areas of well being: physical, physcological. Single women are the next happiest members of society.
THis tells us marriage supports men and destroys women- well not destroys women, but it certainly doesn't help them

I have seen stats in the past that say children of single parents are more likely to go to prison, commit suicide, drug abuse etc. That doesnt mean I think all children of single parents (or anywhere near all) are going to have these problems.

Again though in my life and in my line of work I do see a lot of problems associated with single parent hood. Thats what my job is trying to help and support them. I am not trying to say one group has it worse than others as there are some single parents out there like SGB and Xenia who are happy with this. However there are many that are not, it is not as simple as advocating one or the other. There is a huugggeee range of different people and situations in each group.

Yes but single mothers are more likely to be living in poverty, that's why their children have those problems. Society must support them more. After the war, when all the men had died, no on had a problem with single mothers. It's only women who are single mothers by choice who are worrisome.

worrisome to society i,e the men who run it, not to me

Sakura - Single parents are no less forgotten than loads of the people down at the bottom. The homeless that are all over our streets in some areas (areas in which I have lived), men who cant work and provide for their families as they are stuck in the benefits trap as loads of their work has been outsourced etc.

Again that is about the forgotten section of society at the bottom, and the lack of community sometimes makes it worse for those people. I have no problem with single mothers but I dont think everyone being a single mum or rejecting living with men is the answer to the social problems, isolation and depression experienced by so many.

again, everytime a feminist mentions women, some one pipes up with "But there are homeless men out there, but sometimes men are murdered too."

While that may be true, poverty is feminized. That means more women are in poverty than men. 2 women a week are murdered by their spouses in the UK

It isnt primarily money problems that affect many single mums. Its isolation, no one to turn to, stuck in on their own and no one to see etc. There are loads of community groups and groups for them but very difficult to get them to engage as dont want to be judged by others for doing things that they have chosen that some others might not eg bottle feeding, dummies etc. This isnt just single mums but some mums in couples to. Mums themselves have told me this is a reason why they dont engage with services.

Again I think that is due to the media perpetuating 'competitive parenting'. It stops a lot of people with actual problems coming forward and accessing services. Hence why the government is throwing money at Surestart but it is often still failing to make a real difference overall to the people who need it. Again I do think this is to do with the media and the strategic brainwashing of people to believe risks are everywhere, people arent to be trusted and there is a perfect way to do everything. This results in them feeling inadequate and insecure so they stay in on their own with no support.

Dont put up with abuse or awful behaviour but then again life isnt going to be always perfect. There will be a lot of shit in with the fun stuff but as long as you appreciate each other and are always kind to each other then I do think in those situations you can work with it, if you choose to. There should be no shame in leaving marriage (which personally nowadays as it is so prevelent I dont think there is)

Again I am definitely not advocating not doing the same amount of work but one may be contributing in different ways at times. That is why I pointed out about me hiding my washing up and eating pot noodle because sometimes things are hard and it is difficult to find the energy to keep going. People arent failures if they havent got perfect homes, perfect lives and perfect kids it isnt normal. Again it is a worry to a lot of people as that is how the media and capitalism makes everyone feel.

'Third world women live in communities with extended families.'

I think we should go back to this. I am lucky myself as this is what I have where I live I have loads of family members here and that makes things easier for us as a couple. I am also lucky to have plenty of reliable friends who will swap childcare as well etc.

This is what makes a difference and takes the pressure of people way, way more than money. If people arent lucky enough to have family near by then places should get back to the feel of communities. Dont listen to the media that everything is risky so stay in your homes and avoid people and dont buy in to the ways they try to make you insecure. Also dont listen to how all men are threats and paedos and they are lurking around all corners after your kids.

It is not normal for 2 people to completely do absolutely everything to run a home and care for children with no outside help but the Uk and other industrialised nations make out you are a failure if you ask for help. I find it so frustrating personally.

"It is not normal for 2 people to completely do absolutely everything to run a home and care for children with no outside help but the Uk and other industrialised nations make out you are a failure if you ask for help. I find it so frustrating personally."

I completely agree, Sunny. But that is why it is really really hard for people (usually women) when it is essentially just 1 person doing everything to run a home and care for children while another just takes it as their due, and actually creates even more work by not even bothering to look after themselves.

I'm lucky - my DH doesn't do that and we do genuinely have 2 people working together and sharing things out more or less equally. But many many people have DHs/DPs who see their WOH as the only work they have to do.

Even in situations you describe where men are out doing back-breaking work, often their female partners are doing manual work too, but still many of these men expect their partners to also do everything at home. And if they have family/friends around to help out then actually that can mask the fact that they aren't pulling their weight. So things get done and shared out, but still one of the partners is being treated as less equal than the other.

TBH I'd rather have an equal partnership without any outside help and us both have a tough time together than have plenty of outside help that masks the fact that one partner (usually male) in the relationship doesn't pull their weight in the home so only one person has a tough time at home while the other gets everything done for them. At least the marriage/partnership would feel more equal and you can resent the lack of help together rather than resent each other.

Footlong, the lazy comment didn't make sense, so seemed a bit desperate.
Whatever may have been said to you, you introduced yourself to us by declaring us spoilt, and then complain when someone has issues with you?

Sunny, I do find your take on things different to my experiences, partly I suppose as I don't know many men who work those sorts of jobs etc.
I object very much to your suggestion that Sakura or anyone else for that matter do not live in the 'real world'.
It's a different world that's all.

i think we need to accept that we all have different life experiences, without immediately throwing out someone's argument just because they are drawing on personal experience.

however, we also need to look at the stat.s which provide the 'big picture' about health, happiness, life expectancy etc.

there are some SAHM who are lazy & do very little, but that doesn't mean that all women are like that. there are some men at dh's work who are lazy and don't pull their weight. it doesn't mean that everyone who has a job is like that.

what we need to focus on is why and how the cognitive dissonance arises, and how to break the cycle. certain couples appear to be happy with their solutions, but there is still friction in many marriages - is this just the inevitable result of living in such close company with another human being, or is it because of the individuals involved and their bahaviours?

one point i have pondered - a LOT of the 'shitwork' within family life is created by the kids. When they are small, we accept this, but tend to then blame the partner for doing too little to support the family. however, i wonder if that is just displacement? not many parents of young kids will look at the baby & blame them for the situation, our parental feelings make it v unlikely, so we place the resentment on our partners instead?

i know this doesn't explain all the problems, but look at how many couples become happier as a couple once the children get older & there is less pressure.

btw, xenia has been mentioned as an example of a woman who handled the situation well - she certainly seemed to be aware of the issues & plan around them. However, her husband left. that does beg the question, do men stay in a marriage if they don't have enough done for them? perhaps women who think too much are destined to be alone?