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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's talk about cognitive dissonance ...

1001 replies

colditz · 15/09/2010 09:33

My relationship with my children's father broke up because he lied about money and hit me, and I finally, after many years of misery, refused to tolerate it. But why did I tolerate it for as long as I did when I was miserable?

I believed that children need their parents to stay together and that I would not cope alone. The facts were that children do not need one parent to be abusing the other, and that my life would have been easier without him merrily fucking it up.

The stress caused by the gap between my own personal beliefs and the reality of my situation was causing an uncomfortable feeling, often described as cognitive dissonance.

Is this the reason that people who consider themselves fair minded nevertheless perpetuate an unfair system? Intelligent women who do all the housework and childcare 'because he goes to work' must see the difference between theirs and their husband's exhaustion levels - why do they accept it, and decide that 'going out to work is really hard' when they surely must remeber the time when they went out to work and had no home responsibilities as being a darned sight easier than the life they live now?

I think it's bcause cognitive dissonance is a very uncomfortable state of being, and if you cannot change your situation, you must change your way of thinking to bring it in line with your situation or suffer the misery of inner conflict.

Which brings me to the rejection of feminism.

Why do so many women reject feminism when it would clearly improve their lot to be treated fairly?

Is it because they cannot easily become fairly treated individuals, not without huge conflict and arguments in their home and at work, so they decide, unconsciously, to believe that they are already treated fairly? And therefore feminism is defunct in their minds.

Intersting.

OP posts:
HerBeatitude · 21/09/2010 18:23

Yeah Sprogger, I hate the way the middle classes think they own education and articulacy. Brings out the class warrior in me. Wink

sprogger · 21/09/2010 18:42

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claig · 21/09/2010 18:52

As an aside about class. Even John Prescott said he was middle class and "we're all middle class now". That's why the Labour party no longer speaks for the working class. We need as many working class perspectives as we can get. Sunny's descriptions of her DH's 12 hour shifts in uninspiring jobs for poor pay and Malificence mentioning how her ex-military DH had to work 12 hour shifts in a cold-store, remind us how hard it can be.

I am interested in all views Sprogger. I don't agree with everything Sunny said, but I found her views interesting. They made me think and question things. I think she explained how status and money were not overriding factors for her, and that happiness was her overriding goal. I think that is admirable. But I don't think that Sunny would support discrimination in wages just because she is happy. She said hardly anybody that she knows earns much more than the minimum wage. They are all on relatively low wages.

LeninGrad · 21/09/2010 19:04

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claig · 21/09/2010 19:09

I agree it wasn't the whole thread. Some of us would like Sunny to continue contributing. I said that she was told to find another discussion. I didn't mean that everyone was unanimous in that opinion.

wastingaway · 21/09/2010 19:37

Is class based on household income, education levels or size of book collection or what?

We get Working Tax Credits this year, does that make me working class now?
Or just poor middle class?
Was I ever middle class? Hmm

claig, it seemed to me that a point had been reached at which Sunny's input was starting to get somewhere when she decided to go, which is a shame.

Footlong · 21/09/2010 21:41

Well this thread has followed a predictable pattern!

Sunny expresses a differing opinion about the topic, and the herd decides that it isnt valid and bullies her off the thread.

And as for Sakura saying

sorry, I'm just emphasising the fact that I'm not a scrounger or a parasite because I'm at home with the babies, like Footlong and society are trying to imply.

Sums up nicely how hypocritical some of you are. I never implied anyone was a scrounger or parasite. An insulting nonsense, but what I half expected given the tones of this individuals posts. And you wonder why Sunny gave up trying to discuss on this thread?

And dont forget this next gem from Sakura

And as we can see from Footlong's post, he is as sexist as it gets nowadays and he's "very happy" in his marriage by his own admission

I am as sexist as it gets nowdays? Really? err ok.. would you like a side-order of bullshit with your mains of hyperbole?

I am fast discovering that other posters are right in that this feminist forum isnt about debate, it is about a few people agreeing with each other and being rude and bullying to any dissenting view. I am very glad I am just sticking to this thread and have no intention of joining any other in the feminist forum, far to nasty and bullying to have any real debate.

I think a few people need to make more of an effort not to let jealousy get the better of them.....

StayFrosty · 21/09/2010 21:51

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HerBeatitude · 21/09/2010 22:09

LOL at you calling house Stayfrosty I say you're precipitate, he hasn't called us ugly lesbians yet. Grin

vesuvia · 21/09/2010 22:16

Footlong wrote - "I am fast discovering that other posters are right in that this feminist forum isnt about debate, it is about a few people agreeing with each other and being rude and bullying to any dissenting view. I am very glad I am just sticking to this thread and have no intention of joining any other in the feminist forum, far to nasty and bullying to have any real debate."

The feminsist forum is no better or worse than other Mumsnet forums. The difference seems to me that it is held to a higher standard by its critics.

StayFrosty · 21/09/2010 22:28

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Footlong · 21/09/2010 22:29

^board telling women they should put up with horrible behaviour from their partners. Are you new or a namechanger by the way?
^

I am not even sure what you mean by namechanger.

And you make my case for me most eloquently, I have never told anyone to put up with horrible behaviour from a partner in this or any other forum. You are indeed, just making shit up.

he hasn't called us ugly lesbians yet

Just wait.... given the nature of some posters, I will be accused of calling you that.. or implying it, within just a few more pages.

LeninGrad · 21/09/2010 22:32

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vesuvia · 21/09/2010 22:46

Footlong, your first post in the feminism section appears to be on this thread and it started

"There are some seriously spoilt people in this world.. and I am talking about some of the mums in this thread. I dont help my wife much when I get home"

Perhaps not the most constructive start to your feminism-debating career?

It probably didn't endear you much to some of the feminists here.

Footlong · 21/09/2010 22:46

That is rich!
I am not trying to stop anyone from having the debate, I just objected to the bullying and misrepresentaion of what people have said (or not said!) I think Sunny was making a good contribution and basically got bullied. But if you cant see that, choose not to see that, or genuinely dont think it happened.. fine. I clearly cant change your view.

As for the herd, I never said everyone was a member of the herd, just that there was a sub set of posters who in my opinion are herd like in nature. But that no different to many different forums on many different topics. Doesnt make it any more pleasant though.

Footlong · 21/09/2010 22:49

Vesuvia - Did you intentionally leave out the bit where I said I was spoilt as well?

LeninGrad · 21/09/2010 22:52

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Footlong · 21/09/2010 22:53

Oh and when I posted that.. I didnt realise I was in the feminist area! I had followed a link from another area of MN, and then just posted a reply to the thread!

I did not come here looking for a reaction, I have just been appalled by some posters attitude and misrepresenation of what I have said.

I am NOT saying all posters, some that disagreed with me have been fair and accurate in their criticisms. Others ... well.... I have already said enough abut them.

wastingaway · 21/09/2010 22:54

And it would have made it ok to insult us if this had been in Chat?

Footlong · 21/09/2010 22:56

leninGrad - I agree. But I am referring to certain people calling others smug, sexist etc etc and others joining that bandwagon. Not what you are referring to.

Do you seriously think I so stupid that I would think on a femisnist forum there wouldnt be an overwhelming agreement on many feminist issues? (that is a rhetorical question!) It is the way the small dissenting opinion is treated that is the key point I am making.

Footlong · 21/09/2010 22:58

wastingaway- Insult you? Compared to what I have been called in this thread... I have been positively complimentary.

wastingaway · 21/09/2010 23:04

Sorry to have to phrase it like this, but you started it.

Can you just clarify for me what the small dissenting opinions are?

Footlong · 21/09/2010 23:06

No, read the thread, it will become obvious. And if it doesnt, well I am sorry for you.

wastingaway · 21/09/2010 23:09

Okay, I took your posts to be a dismissal of our opinions on our own experiences and Sunny to have missed the point.

Not what I'd call opinions on feminist issues, other than a failure to acknowledge that the issue even exists.

grannieonabike · 21/09/2010 23:16

Would this be a good time for a quick spot check on the old cognitive dissonance gauges?
Can we get back on track? Next.

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