SGB,DITTANY Particularly.Re - sexual politics/fetishism

[pinemartina]

I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in Relationships.Sorry if wrong place.

I hope I can articulate this effectively.I would be really interested in as many perspectives as possible.

I had a miserable childhood.NPD parents.Have had much therapy and a professional career in MH for 25 years.Have been married twice to very passive aggressive men.2 dc each.Remain on good terms
with both.
Recently posted on Relationships about xp,father of my 5mth old dd.He is off the scene.An emotionally/verbally abusive coward.Has no contact with dd.

I have always considered myself a feminist and leaning to radical.Lurking on here has been an exciting and challenging education,too.

Here's the thing.Despite my history,I am with SGB on heteromonogamy as a restrictive,prevailing construct.
I reject romantic love and fairy tales,from a social construct and political perspective,

yet

I am sexually attracted to men.(I have not experienced being sexually attracted to a woman.)And I admit to "fantasizing" (???) about the kind of alpha male,sweeping off the feet,man in control UTTER BOLLOCKS which is the domain of abusive knobs.

I am not into sub dom stuff.
I do not have a sexual submission/rape fantasy.

I would like to have a mutually equitable relationship with a man.A partnership.Co parenting would have been great ,but missed that one.
I like sex.With blokey blokes.

My husbands both irritated the hell out of me once the initial stuff wore off.

I'm not attracted to gentle,soft men.

I think I am reasonably self aware,and unlikely to let an abuser near again.

SO

Can "Romantic Love" be a fetish?
Should I be joining a specialist site to
explore this?
Or do I need more therapy?

Must everything be analysed to within an inch of its natural life?

It's just evolutionary biology whether you like it or not! We are not rational creatures.

is romantic love a fetish? seriously?!

by the way - the fact you pick/ed the wrong men is a different issue - not to say you might not find a goodun once all that needs to be has been recognised ackonwledged processed etc by goodun i mean one that turns you on AND isn't an asshole.

but life just can't (luckily) be reduced to these sorts of boxes and categories...

in asnwer to your question - probably a bit more therapy and then you just need to relax and enjoy yourself and see what life brings :)

Thanks Allora, as I am attracted to gentle, nice men I am obviously a freak of evolution who needs a good seeing to with a man who will beat me up hunt mammoths.

OP, if you are not into long term relationships, surely it's not a problem if you find blokey, tough men to sleep with as a one-off? It's when you let them in the house that they become a problem surely? :)

Romantic love is a fetish. TBH recognising that is one way to be able to enjoy it safely. If you're going to live with Mr Sweep-you-off-your-feet then he needs to be a human being too, who will put the bins out when it's his turn, get all macho about dealing with cat sick if necessary as well as looking like he could hunt a mammoth withhis teeth or whatever, and yet be able to laugh at himself. People who can't ever laugh at themselves are crap partners.
When you see your sex life as just one part of your life, something that's basically 'playtime' then you can look clearly at the rest of your life. If someone's a great shag but otherwise boring or even not all that nice, then shag the person but don't take it any further. You don't have to have a regular partner to be 'complete' - being single is great. And TBH anyone who has recently got rid of an abuser is really, really, best off being single for a good long time. At least a year. Because, unfortunately, when you have been abused, it takes a while to regrow your defences and during that time you are attractive to predators. It's almost like they smell your vulnerability - this is why some women who have just managed to dump Mr Violent end up with Mr Not-Violent-But-Controlling or at the very least Mr Cocklodger. Your radar's skewed so you're frightened off by signs of violence but don't detect parasitism. Or wierdness.

Yes,I agree dittany.Now is not the time for a relationship.But I would like to use some of the me space for sorting out where this is at with me.

A close friend is into role play and got "collared" to her partner.She's happy and it works for them.The subdom stuff is private and not apparent as a dynamic between them to others.
I don't think that is for me.
But it's what got me thinking about it.

Not is it a fetish,but - if played out by consent - would it be,does this happen?

Or do feminists just choose not to act out "knight in shining armour fantasy bollocks - even if it is a turn on - as a life style (!!?!!) not just a sexual turn on...

If DH and I ever split up, I am going to do what sgb does

well, some of what sgb does, anyway

x posted SGB
Thanks for that.
Playtime sex not really that easy round here in Royston Vasey without traditional associated crap.
Will just have to go it alone or move!

Lots of women want to put collars on men, too - and lots of men are thrilled to accept. The thing is with BDSM if you are a woman with submissive tastes is it's not unfeminist any more than being a SAHM is unfeminist unless you start banging on all the time about how ALL women should do things the way you do and that your particular choice is the natural and right way for women to behave.

That's where I'm getting mangled,dittany.
A relationship with a man is not my current priority.Probably not again,in any previously experienced shape or form.
And I do see romance as bollocks and mythology.
But it is still an attraction to me somewhere,somehow.
That's what I want to sort out.
I am confident I am not in danger of swooning over bullshit.But the hook when I met my x -abuser - was romance "big love" stuff.Despite my priority being freedom.

pm, I don't think you realise what you have started

You grew up with controlling parents. Therefore being controlled is familiar and comforting to you. You are a single parent with a lot of responsibility.
It'd be a relief to have someone else take charge, not only nice but familiar and comfortable.
So, in our society the solution that best fits the bill is partnering with the macho man, which also happens to be, in our society, the 'gold standard' of manliness. Even if we had a more egalitarian society and the macho man was only a minor subsection, you would probably still lean towards him.
Does that make sense to you, do you think, Pinemartina?
I echo what has been said above about staying away for relationships for a while, at least a year.

Thanks wukter ,that makes a lot of sense.

I'm the kind of woman who uses "romantic" as a derogatory term, but I think there are nice parts of "romance" and nasty parts. Maybe you should think more clearly about which parts of it you actually like, ignoring the fact that IYE it comes bundled up with a load of other crap.

For instance, is it a physically big strong man you want? Do you like someone who's very open about his emotions, good at telling you how he feels (is that the "big love" thing?) The helpful physical presence who is willing to put up shelves or mend cars because he's good with stuff like that?

Or do you actually like the flipside, the sitting on his arse waiting for his socks to be washed because he is A Man and Above Housework? the expecting sex because he bought dinner? the insinuation that you can't do things because you are only a tiny woman and not a real thinking person at all? the controlling a-hole who won't let you go to the cinema in case that usher looks at you again?

& what is a manly man in your view? (honest question)

Dittany: I was pointing out that in BDSM circles, putting a collar on another person is not something that only men do. Is a man who wants to wear a collar also 'a fuckhead to be avoided'?

Also a 'romantic' man can be a soft, gentle man who writes poetry about you and brings you flowers - who can also be either a sweet person who is kind to everyone or a helpless ickle bunnywabbit who doesn't do anything much because he's so sensitive a funny look will have him puking blood. 'Romantic' isn't necessarily macho.

at the flipside! No thanks!

Yes,I think that I mean a physically big,strong man who is aware of the responsibility of handling his strength sensitively.Yes,helpful and willing with stuff he's good at.

Edgy,noisy dunno,came to mind,but always responsibly aware..directed,channelled in a good way - sport,wrestling lions,maybe...
Emotional stuff,not afraid to be open and discuss feelings,but not spilling emotion or heavy stuff out all over.Not intense.Laughs loudly.

I do need to sort out what it is I mean beyond physical ,actually.Because I find myself describing the qualities of any decent friend/human being,if I continue!

Being romantic in the healthy sense involves being selfless. Unhealthy romance is an act designed with selfish motives to procure something; sex, fidelity, commitment, subserviance...So Monsieur Tosseur will buy you roses in order to hook you in and keep you loyal and obedient while he does what the hell he likes.

If you have NPD/conrolling/selfish people in your history then it is difficult to understand and trust unselfish romantic love and therefore easier to dismiss it - maybe even find it a turn off. You are perhaps programmed to respond to apparently selfless acts of love that are actually nothing about the recipient, so anyone who puts you first is unappealing to you when you are used to love that masquerades as something selfless when it is actually entirely about the person offering that love and nothing to do with your needs.

I don't find soppy, giving, thoughtful men attractive at all. I fall in love with selfish, controlling, abusive men. I am in love with fake love, narcissistic love, and selfish lovers. I like the idea of being adored but the reality repulses me as much as the abuse kills me...

You need to love yourself. I don't think this becomes political until it has stopped being emotional. Like how my friend who was an emotional wreck was vegan - it wasn't about animals dying, it was about control [of her emotional self]. Dyswim?

So...you're asking if finding a tall strong, capable man who likes sports, and is generally a nice person is a fetish?

I think probably not.

It's just that you need to filter out the nice ones from the bastards. Some men who fit that description will be intolerable bastards, others will just be nice people, they don't have to be bastards to fit what you want. Or do they?

wukter's post makes a lot of sense to me

My husband is the kindest, gentlest man ever but when we met we fell for each other really fast as there was just a spark between us. We had a romantic wedding and do all the 'cheesy' stuff like write each other love letters and all that type of thing. He however cleans, cooks, helps me with anything, always there for me etc. I have never experienced any of the problems seen on the relationships board during our marriage and my marriage is practically exactly the same as my parents who have never been through any considerable fallouts/problems either. It doesnt mean because he loves you and is romantic that he is an abuser.

Also we have done sex games where he dominates me and I dominate him. Playing games like that doesnt mean I will except being dominated in real life or vice versa. My husband is really big in to being dominated by me he loves the idea of it and acting it out but that doesnt mean I dont respect him or think I am better than him because I am a woman. With many people these games are just a bit of fun.

My husband and my dad are very much alike though and my dad is my hero. loving family man been with my mum 40+ years so I am coming from the upbringing where I think its normal to have a man that loves you, looks after you, respects you and helps you (and vice versa).

I dont think it has anything to do with feminism I just think people repeat patterns they have seen in their childhoods and therapy is needed to help people to realise what their childhood has taught them. My husband and I were only 18 when we met but we know how to treat each other as we were brought up in families that have always role modelled love and marriage to us.

Elephants !!!pmsl, Spat tea all over the computer!!!!!

But really,filtering out the bastards is the key here...
and I am probably also , as hobgoblin says,
"in love with fake love"
Due to the modelling of my NPD parents

"I like the idea of being adored but the reality repulses me as much as the abuse kills me..."

That really chimes.Which should tell me something.Damn.

Thought I was getting there..maybe not quite ,then.

sunny thank you,your marriage sounds lovely.

Coming back to this and haven't read thread.

Yes, romantic love can be a fetish. If you want to explore this, check out SLA (Sex & Love Addiction) resources.

Also, you might be interested in Steve Biddulph type men's movement articles about reclaiming the warrior archetype in a non-intimidating, non-abusive, non-violent way.

More later.