Do you think that men are oppressed?

[poshsinglemum]

For example; the traditional male role is to go out and work so technically men are oppressed by capitalism. Aren't they? Mabe not as oppressed as us girls are though. Thoughts please.

Isn't there a massive problem with alcoholism among men in Japan? I've read about depression, pressure from work to drink to excess at karaoke bars etc...

there may be a rise in drinking, although I haven't noticed it. Do you have any figures?

But there's no way on god's earth that the drinking in Japan compares to Britain's binge drinking, or Russia's (life expectancy under 60 for men apparently, drink-related).

A lot of Asians don't have the enzyme that can break down alcohol so many men don't bother drinking at all (they fall asleep after half a shandy)

It is very safe at night for women. When I first moved here and walked down a back alley late at night I saw a group of men coming towards me and my hackles rose but as they approached I realised they were just 'happy' drunk.

It's quite a different drinking culture altogether

When I lived in Russia I noticed violence against women were very high. LOts of girls speak openly about being raped. There's a MASSIVE porn culture in Russia,
I think attacks are related to porn and alcohol

I don't know much about Japan, but my impression is that it is a very structured society, which provides safety for women and men, with low crime rates. Even the criminals are very structured and organised in the Yakuza and sometimes work together with the legal parts of society, I think. But Japan has got a lot of porn, and even weird comic books etc. How does that influence Japanese society?

Well the women have always been sort of organized against porn. Since the 1970s. NOt for puritanical reasons.
Yes, there is lots of weird stuff in Japan.
My take on it is this:
because society is structured and women know their place men don't have to escape into realms of fantasy where violence is enacted upon women. Cunnilingus features highly in Japanese porn apparently.
It would be interesting to see if the porn was less violent

It's a very structured society. Nobody falls through the net, no homelessness, but it's incredibly stifling.

So good and bad for women

Sakura - my DW would agree with most of what you say especially about women being safe on the street. She did say though as a Western woman she felt she was treated quite differently to Japanese women.. There was a lot of sureptitious groping of Japanese women on underground trains as well as lot of Japanese men reading quite violent pornographc comic books which she found unsettling.

The drinking culture she saw was quite heavy among business men although they do not metabolise it well as you say. She also said that men were very much trapped in thw firms they worked for and had little family life and long hours. There was a lot of going out to hostess bars too after work.

dittany - just to clarify, the chilling bit was his stated willngness to use violence along with other men - suggesting a potentially violent breakdown in Greek society. Not his loss of status.

yes the men are trapped here under patriarchy, without a doubt.

HOWEVER

it is nothing like the soul-destroying existence that a lot of the housewives live, living vivariously through their children, zombies in the shopping mall, or part-time work on the supermarket check-out for the rest of their lives.

ABout hostess bars, yes, there is a culture of that. But I would say "snack" bars are more popular. They are run by a Mama-san, and she makes conversation with the men, chats to them etc, She can be middle-aged. Strangely, there are also host bars for rich, bored housewives. Don't see the appeal myself.

21-Aug-10 13:36:24
"Here is a chilling quote in Der Spiegel (English version) from a Greek man this week about how the economic crisis there has diminished his status as head of his family:"

Not being head of his family isn't oppression for a man, it's freedom for a woman.

It just goes to show how patriarchy has used economics to keep women down and men up.

Could you explain this further dittany?

Thanks everyone who has contributed here - one of the most interesting things I've read in a long time.

Men should have an equal chance to stay home if they want to and lots of couples enable that to occur. On the whole men are not as opressed either int eh UK or rbroad as women.

Japan is a pretty awful place - groping on underground, all that really strange porn stuff and cartoons, massive sexism.. not a nice place at all. Cultures of conformism rarely places most people would choose to live. The Taliban have stamped out much crime. In Singapore you commit a crime if you use chewing gum etc etc... The fact there may be less crime in places where your hand is chopped off for stealing never endears me to a plaec. When Japan starts to have British levels of female representation on boards and the like I might start to feel happier about it. It has also had zero growth for huge long periods and mortgages it can take 100 years to pay off inherited frmo parents, very little land available m, small families and all very cramped up and so uniform - institutionalised conformance, not fun.

It's very safe, though because everyone is middle class. Britain has got gated communities but Japan doesn't.
re. the groping. I don't think there's more of that than in Britain. Body space is respected more here, that's why they don't shake hands, so that ripples over into society.
I think the groping on subways would happen more in Tokyo because there's no community ethos there, and mainly young people live there. Most people leave Tokyo when they decide to have a family and they return to their hometowns

I think men have it hard as the dont have any choices, they have to do hard and do all the dirty jobs and also they miss out on time with their kids. I think I am lucky as a women that I get to combine working and being with my children and it is more difficult to do for men because of societal expectations.

But, luckily for men, they run society, so if they feel a bit put out that they don't get paid parental leave (eg), guess what, they can write that into the legislature.

The only reason men don't get to combine working and being with their children is that they don't want to.

'But, luckily for men, they run society, so if they feel a bit put out that they don't get paid parental leave (eg), guess what, they can write that into the legislature.

The only reason men don't get to combine working and being with their children is that they don't want to.'

Lol last time I checked the average man didnt run society. My husband quit his job when our first was born for 4 months to help me (He was a student so we just lived on student loan). I doubt he will be able to do that next time so thats really upsetting for him. His 2 best friends when on benefits so they could be with their new babies and it shouldnt have to be like that.

Oh, absolutely, I'm being flippant to some extent. My husband had to take a massive paycut and move from a male-dominated industry (mining) in order to work a family-friendly job.

Men are hurt by the patriarchal expectations of society as well. But I don't have a lot of sympathy for the view that they have it harder (which I know is not what you said) when they hold the vast majority of positions of power.

I mean, if I need to ask my boss for flexible working conditions, I'm asking a man. If I'm campaigning for paid parental leave, I'm campaigning male politicians. If I'm taking my (male) employer to court for breaching their requirement for a safe workplace (legislated by men) I'm in front of a male judge. It is men, at every step of the journey, who have the power to decide if I can work for a living and spend time with my child.

So let me rephrase: if the majority
of men wanted to spend time with their children, they'd be ablt to.

My husband makes £6.50 an hour and a £500 bonus a year so couldnt really take a paycut. He has had mny retail assistant managers job and he was only getting £5.80 for those and they were for the big name stores I doubt you understand.

I live in a place where 45% of the population are n minimum wage so I think he is lucky to make £6.50 that is why he couldnt afford to leave and get another job this time as he wouldnt get a job as well paid as the one he is in at the moment.

I dont know anyone in a position of power all the men I know work their socks off for their families and dont get much money for it. There are more men are hardworking in difficult jobs doing that than in positions of power. You are talking about the elite and priviledged men very big difference.

There's always been the debate in feminism between solcialists and capitalists. I don't think wage disparity between men and women who make it good and those who don't is a feminist issue or even an oppression issue. They just failed or weren't much good or were unlucky -that's life.

What is an issue for feminism is unfairness caused purely by gender. There most of the disadvantage has been to women and indeed most women with money and power always have subcontracted out dull chidl and domestic stuff to others. Most women choose to work and plenty woudl rather work than do mindless childcare same as most men.

Xenia - There are plenty of lower wage workers that do a valuabel job. Its not just men or women that are in these roles. I dont see how it is a feminist issue that women are in low paid 'dull' jobs but it isnt an issue for men.

Also I work with children and it is anything but dull it is fulfilling and interesting. My husband is a volunteer youth worker and when he qualifies he will be on a low wage but he will be fulfilled by it. Lots of people find working with people rewading such as working with the learning disabled, carers for older peple and children etc. It is not 'mindless' it is fulfilling and rewarding. I dont see success or 'you made it good' by how much you are paid but rather what you do and how you live your life. It doesnt make you a better person if you get paid a lot.

It's true - if men "as a group" wanted these things to change, they would. But as we know, it's rare that everyone in one sex wants the same things (apart from access to internet porn and tit-mags in the shops apparently, but that's another thread). If you're talking about consensus you'd be more sensible to consult a horoscope and say "all Scorpios want X", at least that's only one twelfth of the population instead of half.

tortoise - that isn't especially directed at you, just that I get annoyed when people generalise about "what men/women want". And what has this thread been about if not looking at the ways in which some men keep other men (as well as women) down.

That's what the patriarchy is, in my understanding - rule of the fathers, not rule of men. It's the older, richer men who are in charge, it's not sunny's DH or tortoise's. And I think it's probably true that if those men wanted things to change WRT childcare etc, they would. But these are the kind of blokes who are largely jetting off round the world shagging young women and giving nary a thought to their own offspring. In the male hierarchy they see themselves as the alphas (because money is their religion) and probably look down on men who want to actually spend time with their children. These men are being raised in largely all-male schools (still), and brought up (in the phrase of one friend who went to a school like this) to be "little kings of the universe".

'That's what the patriarchy is, in my understanding - rule of the fathers, not rule of men. It's the older, richer men who are in charge, it's not sunny's DH or tortoise''

Exactly I doubt many hard working family men who go to work everyday for their family do overtime, difficult physical tasks etc would appreciate you telling them that if they wanted to change things then they could. Most men are not in positions of power, everyone cant be in power so there are more not in power.

My husband does a physical warehousing job does loads of household task and babysits one night every weekend so I can go out. He did loads of night feeds when she was born etc. I get annoyed when some women make out all men are oppressing them. Its ridiculous there are 1000s of men out there like my husband, and I have the pleasure of knowing many of them.

I think what we can all agree on is that whether (some) men are oppressed or not, it sure as hell isn't women doing the oppressing, it's other men. So for logic's sake you can't say "men are oppressed", because while some men maybe are by capitalism, racism etc, others aren't, so it's not really because of being men. Also, while other forces than sexism - capitalism, racism, ableism etc - can have a negative impact on men, women in the same groups (lower income, non-white, disabled) have the double whammy, dealing with those issues on top of sexism. This is why the vast majority of the world's poor are women, the vast majority.

I agree with Elephants that globally women are oppressed as a group. However again it is the elite and priviledged men that are responsible generally not the average man.