Do you think that men are oppressed?

[poshsinglemum]

For example; the traditional male role is to go out and work so technically men are oppressed by capitalism. Aren't they? Mabe not as oppressed as us girls are though. Thoughts please.

the traditional female working calss role was also to go out and work

oh and so did the children too

lets not forget.

also the poorest in society are opressed by the richest

but within the class system itself in a capitalist society, there is no use pretending that this is a Maaaaaans world

Aye, being a SAHM is VERY MC. I think I am the first woman in my line to have taken so long off to have children, and that is only due to things like CTC making it possible.

My mum had to work as soon as she could to put food on the table- she had her children under the Tories :(

Men don't have the power. Some men have all the power. What power does a working class man have?
It has always been in the interest of the rich to keep the poor oppressed. I don't hear much support for unions on here, workers rights are being eroded now, and I hear 'how dare they strike I'll miss my flight.'

Rich, white, men have all the power.
Poor, ethnic, women have the least.
Everyone else is in-between.

but i would argue that of a wc man and woman, the wc man will always have more economic power

You can see the power struggle in the relationship in wc parents because even if they both work in most cases should a child fall ill the woman takes the day off.

but i would argue that is the case, not becuase the woman has a pair of tits - no. becuase in most cases it makes economic sense cos she is earning less.

the decision when you are poor is based on economics and putting food on the talbe.

Yep, you're probably right...but why is the Man always earning more? Why does a 'mans' job pay more? Is it because he takes no time out for dcs? Because he's made better decisions? Or are jobs that men take paid better?

i really dont know.

dh and i are similarly qualified, in fact in work terms i am more qualified. we work in the same field (ish) and we are quite open and realistic when we talk about future prospects and finances. We include him being more likley to get a promotion than me

why? its not becuase i am piss poor at my job, its got something to do with him having a penis. he recognised this as something which is unfair too, it is what it is and we factor it into our future economic forcasts pissed up discussions

There is no doubt that men at the bottom of the economic pile have been hit hard by globalisation and the recent economic collapse. As traditional main breadwinners that has had a particular disproportionate impact on men in typical blue collar industries. Detroit in the US has been decimated by it.

The economic collapse has had a differential impact on men and women because of the way society viewed traditional male and female roles and their relative worth. A redesign of society and male and female roles is necessary to promote equlity between sexes and a fairer distribution of economic wealth but that cannot happen quick enough to offset the rapid economic collapse we have faced. Hence men and women are facing different pressures and it is perhaps men's traditional breadwinner role among the working and lower middle class that has taken the brunt of that shock - but only because more men started out in the position of being breadwinner and women as traditional full or part time SAHM.

Here is a chilling quote in Der Spiegel (English version) from a Greek man this week about how the economic crisis there has diminished his status as head of his family:

""The only thing that interests me anymore is my daily wage. A loaf of bread is my political party. I want to help my country -- give me work and I'll pay taxes! But our honor as first-class skilled workers, as heads of families, as Greeks, is being dragged through the dirt!"

"If you take away my family's bread, I'll take you down -- the government needs to know that," Meletis says. "And don't call us anarchists if that happens! We're heads of our families and we're desperate."

He predicts the situation will only become more heated. "Things are starting to simmer here," he says. "And at some point they're going to explode."

I predict there will be riots in Greece and men will be leading those too.

yes when men feel oppressed by patriarchy they take it out on "their" women, because they're always going to be weaker in the overall hierarchy

but agree with prolesworth, none of this has to be inevitable

I think that the ruling elite know exactly what will happen. They know that on the whole men need to believe that they have a purpose in the family, and providing money for the family is what gives most men their pride and purpose. If their role is removed by the forces unleashed by the ruling elite, who are deliberately trying to undermine them, then they will turn to crime and violence. They are unlikely to be able to defeat the ruling elite, who have all the power of the state at their command. The end result will be that these men will destroy themselves and their entire communities as crime and violence soar. Women will suffer greatly as insecurity will become rife, the family will be destroyed and crimes of rape will increase as the bonds that hold society together are destroyed. The ruling elite won't care as they will be well protected in their gated communities. I don't think the financial crash was by chance, I think it is the first stage in an impoverishment of all of us, and the beginning of an attack on our way of life, our social security and our pensions.

threelittlepebbles - yes you are absolutley right. Greece is perhaps a more extreme example of what is happening in all Western economies and especially in relation to traditional male roles. All societies are patriachal to a greater or lesser extent as many other posters have noted and the extent that men feel the pressure of teh economic collapse is perhaps magnified again by how 'patriachal' the society they live in is.

I have a male Mexican friend who has lived in the UK and various countries in Europe and has recently returned to Mexico. He told me an interesting story that in that fairly patriachal / macho society women openly criticise other women if they do not send their man out to work. My friend says that men who work at home or work part time and look after their family (like he does) are openly looked down upon. He says other women criticise his wife because they do not see him walking out of their house at 8.00 am each day to go out to work. Being seen to be going out to work is very important to my friend's standing in that society and I am talking here about a man who is in the upper echelons of the middle class in Mexico.

He told me that unemployed men there often just pretend to go to go out to work and then sneak back home later to save face - not with their own wives but with their neighbours wives.

claig - I agree with agreat deal of what you have said. It will be a major problem in China too when the economic downturn eventually hits them too. There are huge numbers of men that outnumber women there, with few economic prospects. The chances of external war or internal revolution and civil war in China are high because of the huge number of underemployed men with no prospect of ever having a wife, family or money.

Japan is a bit like that BeenBeta, but there's no doubt at all where the power lies. Japanese housewives have all the power of the purse at home, their husband's get pocket money. But women can't make social or environmental changes in this kind of culture.
Women need power in international politics

x posts, agree with claig

I do youth work with young men in Inner London who are certainly oppressed by the expectations upon them. The need to be macho and gain a 'hard' reputation is far more important than doing well academically. Before Damilola Taylor was killed he was bullied for being 'gay', because he was academic and didn't fit into the macho stereotype. These young men are at the bottom of the heap academically. Interestingly, girls from the same background do far better academically, possibly because they can get away with taking more of an interest at school and not being seen as a race/class traitor.

As a middle class, privately educated young woman I've come from a different world and had an unbelievable amount of opportunities compared to them. Because of having such a privileged upbringing I've never felt held back by my gender.

Sakura - I was hoping you would drop into the thread because I think Japan is an interesting case.

My wife worked for a Japanese firm and lived there for a while in the late 1980s. She used to say that many young female 'office girls' had what she called none jobs (eg tea making, opening doors in department stores, etc) and were expected to leave work as soon as they got married. She also saw may older men 'window sitters' who had no actual job but still went to work and took home pay.

Her take on it was that Japanese society basically hung together because every one had work, especially men, even if some people actually did nothing useful at work. Again a very patriachal society.

Is that a fair description and is that model now breaking down under the strain of the economic crisis?

Yes, Japan creates fluff jobs for men (although the people doing it don't realise they're fluff jobs obv). It's a type of intensive socialism but it gives men morale, a reason to wake up in the morning, a bit of respect in front of their wives and society. I like the system. THe streets are safe for women at night.

Having said that Japan is also managed by a ruling elite which are about 90% men. They make disastrous environmental decisions and do some pretty silly things (they've agreed to allow the US to expand it's already humongous military base in the beautiful island of Okinawa because they still feel "ashamed" that they lost the war )

Japan didn't suffer too much from the economic crisis because they learned their lessons the hard way the first time round. The bubble economy crashed and brought the same problems the US and Europe are having now. All from their own mistakes where they thought stocks (or is it bonds?) would rise (sorry I know shit about economics). So they have always been aware of the phenomenon and protected themselves markets accordingly.