Key feminist texts for me to read and leave lying about the house for dd?

[HRHQueenElizabethII]

Spurred on by musings from another thread: I've read almost no feminist writings, and was one of those women in my early 20s who rejected the term; through not understanding it.

I've been extraordinarily lucky - I've had strong female role models, but find myself more feminist than them, and have married a man who's clearly a "natural" feminist - though he hasn't read the literature either. But so much of what I read and see makes me want to buy some key texts, past and current, so that dd will have access to them as she grows up, and so understand the contexts and conditions which will influence the choices she makes in the future, and those made by people she comes into contact with.

Anyone fancy giving me a reading list?

I mean it wasn't the woman changing all, or even most, of the nappies.

But charitygirl's p[oint still stands dp: if you have read all these feminist tomes, how come you see feminism as being about screwing around and getting pissed?

The point I was making daftpunk, is that I don't believe you've read all those books.

However, I absolutely agree with you that, despite all the advances made over the last 100 years, household and caring responsibilities fall disproportionately on women's shoulders. But it's not inevitable, it can be changed on both individual and societal levels, and the way that men and women bring up their daughters and sons does have an effect on how the next generation do things.

i didn't say i'd read them all...i said "pretty much"..all of them

daftpunk -the one changing the nappies ...er no.

In my house I am the sole female (bar the dog) and I ensure that DH does his fair share of childcare/housework etc...

I left my ex because he was a lazy pig around the house.

feminism is not about being able to compete with the men on the bad habits but to be equal in opportunities and expectations. In work and at home.

You should really read some of these books as a parent they help you be aware of how slanted the main media/film/art etc are.

Then maybe you would think again about assuming that your expectation's for your daughters future is so limited.

I breastfed, dh changed the nappies. Seemed fair to us.

And "haven't you worked that out yet?" - jeez, daftpunk! Why didn't you insist your DH change nappies? You just don't seem to answer any of these questions - having read these books, why didn't you insist on equality?

noonki;...maybe i need help understanding feminism, i look around and i actually think women are getting worse...plastic surgery/spray tans/fake nails......who is this for?...men of course...

oh well...have to go, dh will be in soon...will want his dinner.

daftpunk - some women are getting 'worse' but that is nothing to do with feminisim. In fact all that you mention is the very opposite.

plastic surgery etc is more about the increased obsessed by the media about our looks and the over importance of looking a certain way.

Feminism is about providing women with the same opportunities in life (be it work, education, pay,) the same rights as men (to make decisions in the home, to be safe, to only do things that we want to do sexually, to have no expected 'roles', equal opportunity to work where we want as much. To be treated with respect to have our views as listened to and acted on as men's are, to be looked after as much as we look after.

It's not about being as strong physically and being able to keep up with men. Or shagging as many people as we want (though it may be about not being called a slag when a man in the same situation would be patted on the back) or drinking til we puke. It's about dressing how you want to please yourself not a man or the media image of what men fancy.

haven't time to re-read so sorry if it is a garbled load of garbage!

No DP it isn't for men - it's to make money by making women feel insecure about their bodies.

Daftpunk, I'm really shocked by your posts. I agree with you that some things are getting worse (teenage girls thinking it normal and necessary to remove all of their pubic hair comes to mind), but amazed that you seem so resigned to the idea that we can do nothing to change things for the better. Do you really believe this?

I am glad you have posted though as it has made me realise how urgent this whole discussion really is.

I think the biggest enemy of feminism at the moment is the extreme free market ideology that we've had for the last 30 years. If you believe the market always gives people what they want, and that this is the best and fairest way to run society, what objection can you possibly have to porn/depilatory products/breast enlargements if they are all selling like hot cakes?

And what what we need to teach our children above all is to be resistant to the claims of advertisers, and to constantly question the version of reality that is presented to us through marketing and associated media.

I think you're right there Iorek.

DP - I struggle to see how you'd account for social change. Let's say your daughters and their friends either never read a feminist book, or read them and retain very little of them : this doesn't mean that they won't have different experiences from you because of a whole range of social changes dislodging 'truths' about gender roles.

In the 20th century in Britain,two of the biggest factors in changing roles for women were the world wars and their economic fallout. In the west during this credit crunch, a lot of two-income families across the social spectrum will see the man lose his job. Without money for childcare a lot of households will find themselves reconfiguring gender expectations.

I have a PhD and I am for the most part at SAHM - it is possible to live that role in ways that are feminist I think, but that's a whole other thread.

Sibh - It would be a very good other thread.

Thanks Voltaire - I think we might need to save it until everyone has got their breath back from this one though ...

And I need to mow the grass while DH changes DD2 for bed.

'I am for the most part at SAHM - it is possible to live that role in ways that are feminist I think, but that's a whole other thread.'

God yes. It really annoys me when people assert that SAHMing is de facto anti-feminist.

Well, dd and I have just spent a happy half hour making Lego robots - my idea, after all this - she is now in bed listening to Sleeping Beauty on CD, mind, so I think I lost all credit there...

I feel incredibly responsible about this for dd; like it's something I really should think about and could get very wrong.

But am also utterly inarticulate atm. Can't seem to string two words together. I was surprised by my reaction to daftpunk's posts - I felt very angry on dd's behalf, and that was quite an interesting feeling.

Daftpunk, I am curious, though - at some point in your life you wanted to read feminist texts, a point that largely passed me by, save for some Margaret Attwood - but now you want your daughters to be "feminine" and feel that you have to have a tidy house and dinner on the table for a man - what happened in between?

oh bollocks have you read any feminist texts daftpunk
you lot are all too polite
you've made it perfectly clear you haven't the faintest clue what feminism is about, and you're just blundering around on the thread with ill-informed and vapid opinions

FrannyandZooey;

there is no way you can known which books i've read or haven't read...do you think reading detective novels would get you a top job at scotland yard?...you're argument is ridiculous..

who hasn't read the female eunuch?....jesus, my neighbours dog has prob read it.

Daftpunk, your analogy certainly falls into the ridiculous category.

And no, I haven't read the Female Eunuch. And?

I think DP is winding us up.

OK, I'm lowering the elevated tone slightly - but if you're wanting easily-accessible feminism - how about Jacky Fleming? Falling In Love made me wince with recognition - particularly the bit about growing up...

Be A Bloody Train Driver's very good as well.

QE;

the point i was trying to make was this;

it really doesn't matter how many books your dd reads...she will prob get married, have children and spend most of her time in sainsburys ....it's luck if she marries a man who will love and respect her for ever.

Me too small oranges.

Thing is DP we sort of can guess what you have and haven't read by the wisdom of your opinions on this thread. It's unnerving like that.

If you aren't winding us up - then: if you've ever frowned when you've read about women being trafficked for prostitution, or talked to a friend who has been date raped, or bitched about some guy at work who is paid more than you but does less work, or if you've ever been shouted down, or told not to smoke because it's not lady-like, or been told to go change the nappy and stop talking so much

well

you need to ask HRH for a copy of her reading list

Oh piss off, DaftPunk. You just honestly sound stupid now. It was bloody obvious what your point was, but that was your opinion, and a bloody ill-informed one at that.

It's not LUCK - it's fucking Self Respect. Get it? I wouldn't stand for living with someone who didn't respect and treat me like an equal. I hope to whatever you believe in that you teach your daughters not to either.

Jesus, woman - should we just not bother educating women at all? Maybe Afghanistan looks like a fun place to be right now?