Key feminist texts for me to read and leave lying about the house for dd?

[HRHQueenElizabethII]

Spurred on by musings from another thread: I've read almost no feminist writings, and was one of those women in my early 20s who rejected the term; through not understanding it.

I've been extraordinarily lucky - I've had strong female role models, but find myself more feminist than them, and have married a man who's clearly a "natural" feminist - though he hasn't read the literature either. But so much of what I read and see makes me want to buy some key texts, past and current, so that dd will have access to them as she grows up, and so understand the contexts and conditions which will influence the choices she makes in the future, and those made by people she comes into contact with.

Anyone fancy giving me a reading list?

DP, you can only be being deliberately obtuse. And where the hell did I say I would be ramming anything down her throat? I said I wanted her to have access to this stuff, to be able to discuss what it means with me and her father.

And wtf has any of that to do with drinking and "being feminine"? This being- controversial-for-its-own-sake stance is just tedious.

And you haven't answered my question - if voting, etc was worth getting angry about, why isn't equality in the home worth it?

Why shouldn't I compete with men on an academic and employment level? I'm just as intelligent, competent and well-educated. Why shouldn't my dd aspire to that - it doesn't mean she has to grow a penis and drink until her liver dissolves.

What are you going to teach your daughters? What if they want to be doctors, astronauts, academics, businesswomen, world leaders, equal partners in the home? Will you support that?

ARGHHHH - feminism isn't about how much you drink, or the right to get your tits out or shag who you like.

It's about maternity rights, childcare, equal pay, education, political representation etc

It is not about downing 12 pints in the pub.

ARGHHHH..........

but smallorange;...women are trying to be like men. some women have lost count of the men they've slept with...ffs...that's wrong....i have 2 dd and 2 ds...i am teaching them all respect for men/women/animals....they can achieve anything....but i want my daughters to remain feminin...i don't wany them drinking or smoking...i wont mind so much if my ds smoke/drink.....maybe i'm wrong?

Yes, you are wrong.

Utterly utterly wrong. You are teaching them that some things are ok for men, but not for women. But with no valid reason. And that it's fine for your sons to destroy their lungs, but not your daughters. Don't you think that's bonkers?

And it's the pseudo-feminist "I'm empowered, therefore being a poledancer and is liberated" crap that I want dd to understand as bollocks too.

poledancing is crap QE..i agree, wouldn't let my dd do that....but some women would argue that it's their right to do any job they like.

I think that if you think 'women should be able to vote' and should 'have equal rights at work' then you are a feminist whether you like it or not. These are political statements. Feminist ones.

Surely the issue here is choice. DP is implying that girls/women have no choice - their future as man-pleasers is pre-ordained by the fact of their gender status. Clearly, this is codswallop. To return to the original issue that sparked off this thread you only have to read Wollstonecraft, John Stuart Mill, Hardy, Bronte, Austen, to see how far we have come. There is a long way to go, but ffs, in the 20s women under 30 couldn't vote and in the 50s only married women got the Pill. Things have changed and will changed. Pleasing men is not hardwired into our DNA. It represens a choice that thanks to our feminist mothers and sisters we are increasingly free to make for ourselves.

and actually there is a valid reason with the smoking/drinking...mens lungs/livers are bigger....can take more abuse.

Actually, dp - does it not make more sense to teach all your children to have self-respect - respect for their bodies and minds, for what and who they are?

I'm no fan of the mad binge-drinking puking and fighting in the streets stuff in both men and women, nor of sex where it's not undertaken in an atmosphere of mutual respect and self-respect.

But that applies to both sexes - and lung and liver damage is no respecter of gender (though women, I will concede, are more readily damaged by alcohol).

Well, it is their right. And it is crap. We teach our children that each has an equal righ to follow a given path, and each has an equal duty to reflect on the path they choose -- to reflect on whether it is self-respecting and socially valuable.

yes, but imelda whelahan has dealt with them.

stayfrosty - the turbulent term of tyke tyler was a set text in my first year of secondary a zillion years ago. ta v m for the huge rush down memory lane lol

Bullshit re smoking. Men's lungs can't handle more smoke. Of course men can cope with a few more units of alcohol. But I don't recall feminism insisting on equal unit allocation for men and women in health guidelines.

Lung and liver size has nothing to do with it. I'd really get to grips with the biology of this before talking to your children about it. The risks are there for both genders - do you really want that for your sons?

Really the best way of teaching our daughters about feminism is by making sure our relationships at home are a shining example of fairness and respect.

I'm quite entertained by the notion that you can stop your dd from becoming a poledancer, but I have no control over whether mine makes herself subservient to a man for life...

will change

represents

Sorry, am wound up so am making typos.

I have problems with pole-dancing too. I think women should be free to choose their career, but I don't think you can separate pole-dancing from the sex industry which is fuelled by very nasty misogyny on all its levels. Also, I think the 'pole dancing is empowering cos the women dupe the men into giving them their cash by encouraging the fantasy that the dancers do it for pleasure' argument is bollocks, and perhaps even disrespectful to women AND men. Perhaps masculinity is a feminist issue!?

Indeed, Voltaire, a point I have made over and over to daftpunk, but which she has failed to acknowledge.

PMSL at daftpunk - despite your claim to have read 'pretty much every book on this thread, your understanding of what feminism is seems entirely informed by mass media misconceptions - drinking 12 pints, shagging around...WTF?

You must know that these are not what feminist writers write about. If you had read them, you'd even know that modern feminists have dealt with the nonsensical claims that female empowerment is 'acting like men'.

no, of course i don't want that for my sons...but drinking has always been a male "thing"...socially acceptable if you like....it's always worse seeing a woman drunk.

Agree much sexism is disrespecting to men also -- think how distressing it might be to HRH's dh to read that he is expected to be the beneficiary of the trammelling of women. To be cornered into a position where you are exploitative, and told that is your destiny.

Well, what's socially acceptable can and does change. Why not try to encourage your sons to buck that trend, and have healthier livers and lungs in the process? It'll give them more time to do some ironing.

I'm hoping my sons will be the models of moderate drinking: if they generalise from this household they will think that women drink far more than men, have astonishingly copious body hair, and do all the driving.

charitygirl...the point i was making was no matter how many books a woman reads on feminism...she will be the one changing the nappies.....haven't you worked that out yet?

or do you want me to write a thesis on "what feminism means to me"

Now I think about it, my parents have quite a traditional division of labour in the household. But that isn't because of biological destiny. It because Dad burns everything he cooks and Mum is about as good at mechanical things as a monkey is with a typewriter (her description). In my house, my (male) partner does the cooking, I do the repairing of toys/anything mechanical and we share the cleaning and DIY. My parents made it clear to me that work was something that we all had to do, it didn't matter where or who did what just as long as bills were paid and the house was clean (ish). They both worked full time outside the house too. I think I learned from their example more than anything else that the best relationships are equal partnerships.

I'm sorry daftpunk but that's just rubbish! It wasn't so in our house and I'm sure we are not unique, or even unusual!