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"Delicately balanced on a razor edge of mutual toleration": Rowan Marlow, Saint or ?

312 replies

CreativeGreen · 17/01/2026 13:15

Apologies if the quotation isn't quite right there: no Forests to hand.

Inspired by a post on another thread, I need to talk about the Marlows. Is Rowan spectacularly awful, and Lois an Unsangered heroine? Is Giles ghastly? (I think yes). What's your Marlow Family Liking List?

(I will be posting and running for now but I have many thoughts and wanted to start the thread while I remembered to)

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WryNecked · 23/01/2026 15:25

CreativeGreen · 22/01/2026 18:27

Yes, I think mostly that too - I guess maybe 'liking the navy' was more a thing for schoolgirls in 1948, but also Tim's trying to ingratiate herself with Nicola here.

But also, as careful a writer as AF is, she does forget things or go wrong sometimes, I think. In Peter's Room, Karen has asserted all her life that she could never be a teacher because 'think of 40 like NIck and Lawrie bobbing up in front of one' - and then they get to the Merrick party and she Ann help with the hide-and-seek because they 'positively like' small children and are good with them!

Also who is or isn't in the sixth form at any given time, and who overlaps with whom, isn't right - Jan Scott, Lois, Karen and Rowan all go awry on this.

And if Ginty is 'rising fifteen' in Peter's Room, and Nicola 14 and a half in RAH, that's at the very least Irish quads for poor old Pam.

I agree with @DeanElderberry. 'Irish quads' is offensive.

The Marlow children's spacing only works at all with a very speculative combination of prematurity and virtually immediate conception after Pam gives birth, but in a way which is completely incompatible with her husband being away at sea a lot.

DeanElderberry · 23/01/2026 15:33

But is it Giles, nothing for six or seven years, then an annual pregnancy for six years, or what?

WryNecked · 23/01/2026 15:38

DeanElderberry · 23/01/2026 15:33

But is it Giles, nothing for six or seven years, then an annual pregnancy for six years, or what?

Mind you, it's perfectly possible that in the Marlow family a slew of babies died very young and no one ever thought to mention it to the 'lower deck'.

One of the odder moments for me in the Marlowverse is when no one tells the children that Jon's death means their father inherits Trennels and they're all moving there from London immediately. 'I suppose they thought you knew' does a lot of work among the Marlows.

EmpressaurusKitty · 23/01/2026 16:31

When you combine the age differences with AF’s way of jumping the timeline forward through the decades though, they make more sense. Or at least they don’t make less sense.

RustyBear · 23/01/2026 18:36

CorvusPurpureus · 18/01/2026 20:13

It's high enough that she's calculating her 4' plus her arms, but it definitely references her being 4'. Which even allowing for post war nutrition is decidedly unlikely - I think the twins would have been 12ish by TM&TT. The illustrations in my edition do show all 4 Marlows as looking much younger than expected, & oddly elvish; Ginty in particular is all eyes & pointy ears.

I'm not sure AF had that much familiarity with actual teenagers. They all seem to be physically tiny whilst mentally operating as Eng Lit undergrads. I mean, it would be lovely in some respects if that were a realistic vision - English teacher here - but...

Edited

Well, the 4ft would only have been from her feet to her shoulders, as her raised arms would overlap her head. So her actual height would have been more like 4’9” or so. Though whether the mathematically-challenged Lawrie would have realised this while hanging from her fingertips from a high wall is debatable…

LookingThroughGlass · 23/01/2026 19:29

I think Geoff came home on leave, impregnated Pam, sailed away again, came home to see the baby born, impregnated Pam with the next one; repeat x 6.

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 23/01/2026 20:44

I have no respect for Geoff, Pam or for Giles. Imagine agreeing to Rowan taking on the running of Trennels, no matter how convincing she was. Giles would have been very aware that it would be his in the long term too.

Marcipix · 24/01/2026 09:54

RustyBear · 23/01/2026 18:36

Well, the 4ft would only have been from her feet to her shoulders, as her raised arms would overlap her head. So her actual height would have been more like 4’9” or so. Though whether the mathematically-challenged Lawrie would have realised this while hanging from her fingertips from a high wall is debatable…

Thank you, that makes sense.

CorvusPurpureus · 24/01/2026 15:00

Except - & I can't prove it because my Forests are in a box in the UK several 1000 miles away - I'm sure the line was something like 'there was about 4' of Lawrie...more because her arms would stretch her'. I distinctly remember being about the same age (& approaching 5'10 rapidly...) when I read it. Happy to be proven wrong if anyone has TM&TT on hand...my chagrin would be consolable Grin.

CatChant · 24/01/2026 19:14

@CorvusPurpureus No need to console your chagrin. You are absolutely right.

The line is: “She wondered if she could hang by her hands and then drop - but there were only about four feet of Lawrie and a good fifteen of wall. That still left eleven feet - no, a bit less because her arms would lengthen her -“

@Oftenaddled Thank you for the tip about Changeover! I am looking forward to reading it once I’ve had a chance to print off the pdf version.

Like @pollyhemlock I don’t see a grooming element in Fire and Hemlock. I think that interpretation has come with time and our far greater awareness of the potential for abuse in adult and child relationships.

I always thought Tom wasn’t aging while he was in Laurel’s power, so Polly was catching him up. And while Polly was a hoped for escape strategy, he never placed her under any obligation to save him, while at the same time rescuing her himself from the consequences of her parents’ neglect.

The Eight Days of Diana Wynne Jones podcasters would disagree but, much as I enjoy their enthusiasm and ideas, they do look at the books through a prism of twenty-first century sensibilities. In The Ogre Downstairs episode they kept harping on about the physical violence in the book as though it was abnormal rather than par for the course in a lot of 70s families. I never batted an eyelid at the brothers thumping each other, or at the Ogre beating the boys for bringing down the bathroom ceiling - he was grumpy and had a short fuse so it was entirely unsurprising.

pollyhemlock · 24/01/2026 21:07

@CatChant I agree with you about the DWJ podcasters. There is much to enjoy but they do have a tendency to find things ‘problematic’ because their mindset is attuned to the present day context. They find ‘colonial attitudes ‘ in Nine Lives of Christopher Chant, for example, which I just don’t think are there. I do admire their enthusiasm and commitment though.

CreativeGreen · 25/01/2026 12:08

I don't think F&H is groomy, but I do remember when I first read it (was 18, hadn't known it existed) thinking, wait, what? at the end. Because whatever age Tom is when he and Polly meet, she's still only 10... and he's pretty avuncular, to the extent that she even suggests calling him 'Uncle Tom'. At the same time, though, I somehow don't find it dodgy anyway - I always read it, I think, that it's when she gets to be about 14 that he notices her in a different way.

I mean, we are on a thread based on admiration for a woman whose books contain at least one instance of the worst racial slur, and comments about 'melon-boy's grins'.....

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LookingThroughGlass · 25/01/2026 12:15

CreativeGreen · 25/01/2026 12:08

I don't think F&H is groomy, but I do remember when I first read it (was 18, hadn't known it existed) thinking, wait, what? at the end. Because whatever age Tom is when he and Polly meet, she's still only 10... and he's pretty avuncular, to the extent that she even suggests calling him 'Uncle Tom'. At the same time, though, I somehow don't find it dodgy anyway - I always read it, I think, that it's when she gets to be about 14 that he notices her in a different way.

I mean, we are on a thread based on admiration for a woman whose books contain at least one instance of the worst racial slur, and comments about 'melon-boy's grins'.....

Not to mention Chas's dog, Sam, the offensiveness of whose name was carefully downgraded via 'LBS' from its original form in The Ready Made Family.

CreativeGreen · 25/01/2026 12:16

Oh gosh yes! Forgot that one.

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CreativeGreen · 25/01/2026 12:17

Always thought it was funny that Chas is not allowed to go ahead with his daring suggestion that he might call Nicola 'Nickers' but 'Nacker' is fine.

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LookingThroughGlass · 25/01/2026 12:20

AF was very reluctant to change things in the books that hadn't aged well. She refused to take out references to non-villainous characters smoking, hence we have Pam and the Kingscote staff puffing away happily and Patrick admitting to being an occasional smoker.

DeanElderberry · 25/01/2026 12:23

On DWJ, are there any other devotees of Dalemark books who really wish she'd written another?

EmpressaurusKitty · 25/01/2026 12:27

LookingThroughGlass · 25/01/2026 12:20

AF was very reluctant to change things in the books that hadn't aged well. She refused to take out references to non-villainous characters smoking, hence we have Pam and the Kingscote staff puffing away happily and Patrick admitting to being an occasional smoker.

That sounds like the Chalet School, with the staff happily puffing away.

CreativeGreen · 25/01/2026 12:27

Another tangent, but did anyone else read Tim Kennemore? Wall of Words, which was dedicated to AF, has a very Nicola-style heroine, eldest of four-very-different-sisters, and a very Kingscotey teacher. Always been intrigued to know more about that connection.

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WryNecked · 25/01/2026 12:34

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 23/01/2026 20:44

I have no respect for Geoff, Pam or for Giles. Imagine agreeing to Rowan taking on the running of Trennels, no matter how convincing she was. Giles would have been very aware that it would be his in the long term too.

Pam is a strange, inconsistent character in many ways, I think.

I mean, parents in many children's books are just background filler to be got out of the way so that the children can have risky adventures, but AF is a more serious novelist than that, though I think there's a bit of that trope sometimes going on with Pam in something like The Marlows and the Traitor, where they're all off on holidays at a hotel and then Pam goes off to see Geoff for the weekend and is lied to by the authorities about everything. (Is she ever told the truth, actually?)

There's somewhere she's described as 'gay and improvident', I think, and there's that blithe, irresponsible side of her that blows the Last Ditch on Catkin and Chocbar. Then at other points she's quite strict and doctrinaire about hunting manners or the children shouting at one another around the house, or the Changear affair or the fallout from swapping for the netball match and the Play, and we see her coming down hard on Ginty in her Patrick-obsessed moments, or lighting cigarettes in irritation at the breakfast table. She doesn't seem to have any particular input into whether Rowan takes on the farm manager role or not, and refuses to invoke any kind of parental authority over Karen when she's contemplating her disastrous marriage.

She eloped as a teenager because her mother wasn't keen on Geoff, but after an initial period of balls and parties (recalled in Mum's Chest), she's now essentially in many ways a single woman living alone, in a giant entailed house. She has staff, so doesn't do housework, her cooking is famously awful, all her children are either at sea or at boarding school, and she clearly has no involvement in the farm. No one even suggests she might step in when Mr Tranter has his stroke.

What does she do all day?

It must have been an incredible change when Rowan left school so was at home all the time, and then when Karen, Edwin and the children moved into the Tranters' house.

WryNecked · 25/01/2026 12:36

CreativeGreen · 25/01/2026 12:27

Another tangent, but did anyone else read Tim Kennemore? Wall of Words, which was dedicated to AF, has a very Nicola-style heroine, eldest of four-very-different-sisters, and a very Kingscotey teacher. Always been intrigued to know more about that connection.

No, I've read far too little TK, though what I've read (when I was a child) was very good. I loved Here Tomorrow, Gone Today, and Changing Times (which was incredibly sophisticated about relationships and bad marriages).

HelenaWilson · 25/01/2026 12:37

Always thought it was funny that Chas is not allowed to go ahead with his daring suggestion that he might call Nicola 'Nickers' but 'Nacker' is fine.

Well that was Nicola's choice, wasn't it. She recognised that Chas was intending to be cheeky when he suggested Nickers, so she told him no.

CreativeGreen · 25/01/2026 12:40

HelenaWilson · 25/01/2026 12:37

Always thought it was funny that Chas is not allowed to go ahead with his daring suggestion that he might call Nicola 'Nickers' but 'Nacker' is fine.

Well that was Nicola's choice, wasn't it. She recognised that Chas was intending to be cheeky when he suggested Nickers, so she told him no.

Yes, totally. "You won't, you know". Just I remember reading that at 13 and thinking 'but that's WAY worse', from the perspective of 1992.

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BustopherPonsonbyJones · 25/01/2026 14:01

@WryNecked Exactly! I can’t see her doing lots of Good Work. I’m quite intrigued by the relationship between the Merricks and the Marlows too (beyond Patrick and Ginty/Nicola). Do they get on or is it another toleration due to being of a similar social class? And are they the same social class? The Merricks bought the Marlow house in London, so some overlap of ‘standards’ presumably.

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 25/01/2026 14:11

DeanElderberry · 25/01/2026 12:23

On DWJ, are there any other devotees of Dalemark books who really wish she'd written another?

Yes, I particularly like The Spellcoats and thought the way it came together in a version of ‘modern times’ in The Crown of Dalemark’ was very clever. DWJ was always amazing but I think that might have been the last of hers (in order of publication) that I felt was truly on my wow list.