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"Delicately balanced on a razor edge of mutual toleration": Rowan Marlow, Saint or ?

312 replies

CreativeGreen · 17/01/2026 13:15

Apologies if the quotation isn't quite right there: no Forests to hand.

Inspired by a post on another thread, I need to talk about the Marlows. Is Rowan spectacularly awful, and Lois an Unsangered heroine? Is Giles ghastly? (I think yes). What's your Marlow Family Liking List?

(I will be posting and running for now but I have many thoughts and wanted to start the thread while I remembered to)

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CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 15:10

I think this thread might be the nicest and most wholesome thing in my life this week.

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DuchessofReality · 20/01/2026 15:14

WryNecked · 20/01/2026 15:05

I love Peter's Room, too. Not even for the Gondal fantasy whose macho 'Let's all pretend to be boys, even though more than half of us are girls' swords and torture stuff isn't that engaging for me, it's the farm stuff, the Shippen, the fallout from the twins swapping over for the match and the Play, the arrival of Catkin and Chocbar and the emergence of Pam Marlow as a spokesperson for hunting manners and a sidesaddle hunstwoman, the Bronte conversation between Karen, Ginty and Nicola, which reveals so much about all of them, Sprig's death, the fabulous setpiece where the family troop upstairs to see what everyone can wear to the Merrick's Twelfth Night party, the party itself, the hunt (which we get from Nicola, Peter and Lawrie's POVs) etc.

And one of the lines that has stuck with me ‘the geese should have been hers’.

WryNecked · 20/01/2026 15:16

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 15:10

I think this thread might be the nicest and most wholesome thing in my life this week.

I literally don't think I've ever been described as 'wholesome' before. Grin

I do read the Gondal bits, but they're pretty much filler for me.

I suppose I find how much of it represents Patrick and Peter testing their own and one another's masculinity a bit tiresome.

I'm a bit more sympathetic to Lawrie seeing it as improv acting and Ginty starting off by identifying with Emily Bronte, passing through a sort of hurt/comfort slash stage and ending up by sort of using it to test out her own sexuality via Rosina.

pollyhemlock · 20/01/2026 15:49

There is definitely an undercurrent of sexuality in the Rupert/ Crispian relationship which then gets transferred to Rupert/ Rosina, though you sense that Ginty prefers the Crispian persona. DWJ is ( obviously) one of my absolute all time favourites. Difficult to pick my number one though Fire and Hemlock is up there , again obviously. But I love almost all her books . Such an original writer.

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 15:55

Oh interesting - I always thought Rosina was more Ginty's happy place. When she regrets that she can't be Rosina in 'jodphs' and must be Crispin ...

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WryNecked · 20/01/2026 15:57

DuchessofReality · 20/01/2026 15:14

And one of the lines that has stuck with me ‘the geese should have been hers’.

I'm never entirely sure why the geese are so important to Nicola here. She thinks 'Rosina was bad enough, but the geese should have been hers', and she's still glooming about it the next morning, when she thinks about 'Patrick's treachery over the geese' as well as being hungover, sick of Gondal and nervous about hunting (to the point where Rowan asking her if anything's the matter actually makes tears come into the famously dry-eyed Nicola's eyes!).

I mean, you could see the geese as symbolic of Patrick's new closeness to Ginty and his evident sexual attraction to her, but Nicola seems to set it above and beyond the Rosina thing.

I mean, I get that seeing geese go over against the moon would be wonderful, but it's not wildly unusual, is it, if you live in the country and are out and about paying attention to wildlife a great deal...?

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 15:59

I suppose it's the feeling that, only a few months ago, Patrick would have seen they were there and his first thought would be 'Nick would like this, I'll go and find her' but she never entered his head, and now it's Ginty who shares everything.

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Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies · 20/01/2026 15:59

bookworm14 · 20/01/2026 14:40

Another fan of both Forest and DWJ here. Hard to pick my favourite DWJ, but if I really had to I think it would be Fire & Hemlock. You could write a PhD thesis on that book, it has so many layers. Not sure 10 year old me grasped the references to TS Eliot etc, but you get different things from it at different ages. I also love Witch Week, which manages both to be really dark and horrifying and absolutely hilarious. Also the other Chrestomanci books, particularly Christopher Chant, which contains the best cat in all literature (Throgmorten). And last but not least The Ogre Downstairs, which is hysterically funny and should have been made into a kids’ film years ago.

I agree with everything you say about the brilliant Witch Week. I liked Fire and Hemlock as a child but find it uncomfortably groomy as an adult. The Time of the Ghost is very dark, but brilliantly plotted.

My favourite, though, is Archer"s Goon. It is perfection. Hilarious, complex, and moving.

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 16:03

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 15:59

I suppose it's the feeling that, only a few months ago, Patrick would have seen they were there and his first thought would be 'Nick would like this, I'll go and find her' but she never entered his head, and now it's Ginty who shares everything.

And what really gets her is Rowan saying that the image of her sitting with Tessa looks like a sentimental picture where the dog is on its last legs, too, so there's that, for the crying bit.

With the geese though - I suppose it's the fact nobody knows where Patrick and Ginty are, and everyone's looking for them so the Marlows can leave, and they were together having a Special Moment... wonder if that's deliberately recalled when Ginty chafes at the beginning of Attic Term that Nick is not only late home from the Merricks, but has to be phoned and told to come back?

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bookworm14 · 20/01/2026 16:05

I liked Fire and Hemlock as a child but find it uncomfortably groomy as an adult.

I’ve seen a few people say this but I don’t find it creepy at all. Nothing sexual/romantic happens between Tom and Polly until she is an adult, and the age gap isn’t actually as wide as it first appears. You can definitely argue Tom uses her, but I don’t think there’s anything sexually predatory about the relationship.

WryNecked · 20/01/2026 16:06

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 15:55

Oh interesting - I always thought Rosina was more Ginty's happy place. When she regrets that she can't be Rosina in 'jodphs' and must be Crispin ...

She seems alert to the possibilities of sexuality in male-male relationships, though -- she specifically thinks of Rupert and Crispian's relationship as being like David and Jonathan's (sometimes seen as homoerotic), and like that of Nisus and Euryalus, a pair of mutually devoted warriors from the Aeneid, whose relationship has often been read as sexual, and who die together.

And she wants Rupert to die in Crispian's arms, but acknowledges that won't be possible in the actual Gondal, though.

Doesn't she do something similar with Hamlet at the beginning of The Attic Term, when she's besotted and reading Hamlet with Patrick and inwardly complaining that it has no love scenes but doing what she can with Ophelia and Laertes?

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 16:08

You're right about the male-male thing. I guess at that point it's as close a proxy for what she's starting to feel as she is able to reach for?

And yes, she does do that re looking for sex scenes in Hamlet!

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CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 16:14

not sex scenes, sorry. Love. And that's when she impulsively says 'Oh Patrick I do so love you' and then it all gets confusing about whether this is a Rupert-Rosina moment or not.

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Needlenardlenoo · 20/01/2026 16:29

My grandpa had a "shippen"! Sorry, as you were...

WryNecked · 20/01/2026 16:32

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 16:14

not sex scenes, sorry. Love. And that's when she impulsively says 'Oh Patrick I do so love you' and then it all gets confusing about whether this is a Rupert-Rosina moment or not.

Just imagining Ginty trying to vamp as Ophelia in the Hawkyard at the Merricks', and then Kingscote deciding to do Hamlet as the school play and Ginty auditioning for Ophelia by way of Mae West, and Kempe losing her mind. Grin

(Because it really bothers her when Patrick mentions Claudie, and the first thing she asks is what she looks like, and is unimpressed when Patrick says Mrs Merrick says she's a 'belle laide', and she's also bothered when the plain girl, Rachel Whatsit, gets cast as Miranda in The Tempest instead of her, and people are impressed and describe her as 'fascinating' etc)

Sorry, it's not Laertes, it's Horatio Ginty tries to lean into when she's reading Hamlet with Patrick.

pollyhemlock · 20/01/2026 16:37

I agree that Tom does use Polly in Fire and Hemlock, because he knows that eventually he will need someone to save him. However there is nothing sexual or creepy in their relationship and you have to bear in mind that he saves her, repeatedly, from her awful parents and from Laurel. The scene in Bristol where Morton Leroy appears at the end of Clifton suspension bridge is utterly chilling.

pollyhemlock · 20/01/2026 16:39

And yes, Throgmorten is definitely the best cat in all literature. Wong!

HelenaWilson · 20/01/2026 16:49

Sorry, it's not Laertes, it's Horatio Ginty tries to lean into when she's reading Hamlet with Patrick.

Well it's not too much of a stretch is it. 'Good night, sweet prince....'

I did Hamlet for A Level. We all agreed that Horatio was the only decent and likeable character in the entire play.

Lawrie would play Hamlet of course but Nicola I think would be good as Horatio.

pixiegirlishere · 20/01/2026 17:00

I’m a fellow admirer of Antonia Forest and am lucky to own a full set of her books. I’m surprised no one has really mentioned Thalia Keith/Tim who is my favourite character. I like the moment where Nicola realises that ‘Tim likes Lawrie best’ and then later when we see Tim rather left out as a non-sporty person among rather sporty friends.

HumphreyCobblers · 20/01/2026 17:07

CreativeGreen · 20/01/2026 15:10

I think this thread might be the nicest and most wholesome thing in my life this week.

I just found it and the thread is definitely the best thing that has happened to me today. Thanks everyone.

Years ago a famous mumsnet poster kindly posted me copies of the books I hadn't read. It was amazing to fill in the gaps.

Tim and Miranda having a row about Laurie's being an ass, with Esther unexpectedly joining in, is my favourite scene ever.

HumphreyCobblers · 20/01/2026 17:10

I think of Tim often when I see someone of whom I cannot decide if they are absolutely plain or pretty.

CatChant · 20/01/2026 17:38

Throgmorten is wonderful but Benvenuto, from The Magicians of Caprona, runs him close and my favourite DWJ cat of all is Brindle from the short story What the Cat Told Me:

“I am a cat. I am a cat like anything. Keep stroking me. I came in here because you were good at stroking. But put your knees together so I can sit properly, front paws under. That’s better. Now keep stroking, don’t forget to rub my ears, and I will purr and tell.”

Polly’s trip to Bristol and the gradual realisation that Reg has no intention of telling his girlfriend that Polly is moving in with them, and his dumping her at the station without checking she has money, a return ticket or anywhere to go, culminating in her wandering haplessly to the Clifton Suspension Bridge to find Morton watching her is horrifying.

It’s the episode that has stuck in my mind most from Fire and Hemlock, and oh, the relief, when she spots the poster for Tom’s Quartet and realises there is help nearby.

It’s not a good novel for Nicola but I do enjoy Peter and Daks having fun clearing out and reclaiming The Shippen in Peter’s Room.

Then the chapter with The Sprog’s death is so deftly and lightly written, and very moving: “… it was misery beyond bearing when animals died.” And the side-swipe at Ann when she reflects that “that Charlotte” (Brontë) probably told Emily it was wrong to care too much for animals just like Ann would.

”The geese should have been hers,” I think is that Nicola would have loved to see and hear them against the background of a moonlit Twelfth Night for themselves, whereas Ginty is probably revelling in them as a romantic background for a tryst with Patrick.

Tim is a great character, despite her inexplicable (to me) preference for Lawrie. It is refreshing to have someone who wants all the privileges she can get because she’s the headmistress’s niece!

Benvenuto · 20/01/2026 17:41

pollyhemlock · 20/01/2026 16:37

I agree that Tom does use Polly in Fire and Hemlock, because he knows that eventually he will need someone to save him. However there is nothing sexual or creepy in their relationship and you have to bear in mind that he saves her, repeatedly, from her awful parents and from Laurel. The scene in Bristol where Morton Leroy appears at the end of Clifton suspension bridge is utterly chilling.

I think the problem is that attitudes have really hardened re ages gaps & teenagers and whether or not there is a problem, the relationship feels as if it ought to be transgressive simply due to the age gap existing. It’s a long time since I read F&H but this was an issue that I thought about a lot when I last read it (& failed to resolve). It doesn’t help that F&H is one of her more challenging books to read & I spent a lot of time trying to calculate Tom’s actual age.

I also find Enchanted Glass a bit icky at the end, nor do I like Deep Secret very much but at least in those books it’s the minor characters.

Thanks to this thread, I’ve now added F&H to my wishlist along with other DWJ titles missing from my DC’s collection.

Re the original topic of the thread, I’m another person who gradually found AF books from the library / school etc. & gradually increased my appreciation of the series with every book that I found. I am very fond of the quote “My grief would be controllable”.

Benvenuto · 20/01/2026 17:44

pollyhemlock · 20/01/2026 16:39

And yes, Throgmorten is definitely the best cat in all literature. Wong!

Throgmorton is gloriously vindictive & definitely a cat you would want on your side in a fight.

Less good as a companion cat though, as he smells, scratches viciously & caused Christopher to lose a life. Other DWJ cats are available…

Needlenardlenoo · 20/01/2026 17:48

And poor Tim has dropped her full name, Thalia, as everyone mishears it as "failure"!

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