The Rose Field - come over here once you’ve finished !

[CalmConfident]

Hi all, a place for us to discuss once we’ve finished reading the book!

so….totally agree that there are quite a few open plot points….i was going for more of a proper ending 🙄

It needed a good edit. Less travel, more time wrapping up the six million threads started AND the massive rethink/retcon of the previous series which was mentioned in about half a page and then never explored again?!

I felt a bit icky about the Malcolm & Lyra love story that started to develop…and the bit about a 16 year old Mal and widowed Alice 😳

The “we need doors open between worlds after all” pivot was so short, totally agree@DameWishalot !

The more I think about what I read the more open questions and queries I have !!!

Surely, given the number of windows still open, the first thing Lyra would have done would be to cut a window into Will’s Oxford?

I was also surprised Lyra didn’t experiment at cutting a teeny tiny door with the alethiometer needle once found its special properties due to being the same metal as Wills knife

Argh I wrote a big post and lost it.

I liked it. I like the pace and stories converging.

But. I feel that HDMI as a trilogy had the balance right, it had lots of threads but each one was fleshed out and characters rounded. BoD as a trilogy has too much going on. The first one I loved but the second two just miss the mark a little. Take Malcolm. I like him a lot but it's like Pullman understands his importance but has forgotten to tell us. A witch visiting him when Lyra was a baby and the gryphons see him as important and foretold. But why? What has it got too do with the story? What actually are his auras? I was expecting them to be important but they never really were. We never find out what happened for his to stop teaching Lyra either.

Lyra's brother too was not well rounded as a character and I felt like we needed his back story.

Daemons too. There is something important going on but we've not quite got the information we need to understand it. Ah those separated people, some live with their Daemon like Lyra and Malcolm but some don't. The author who does was living with someone else's Daemon. What's going on there? The people who of ore theirs until they stop really seeing them? I get what he was saying about indifference in general but it didn't feel fully explored, especially given we know that Will's world was essentially explained that the Daemon's were essentially internal unless you learned to see them.

Agree with the u turn on opening doors. I understand that it's moving from the childish black and white view to an adult understanding and why lots of doors shouldn't be opened but I can't believe they talked about doors without mentioning spectres!

I understand why Lyra wouldn't find Will immediately. He's a part of her childhood. I felt very sorry for Lyra, she's clearly never really talked about what happened to her and doesn't seem to have anyone close to talk to. Some contact with gyptans perhaps but other than that who is there who she travelled with in her life? She's carrying all this knowledge and all the trauma and she's not shared it with anyone.

I'm not completely disgusted by the building romance. I think it's still a long time coming judging by Lyra and Pan plotting to get him and Alice back together. But Lyra is growing up and starting to see him in a different light and actually while he taught her briefly several years ago he's had no contact with her since so not like he's been watching her grow up. But then I know a fair few big age gap relationships. 11 years is nothing.

I feel like there is a lot more story to tell. Wasn't as satisfying as I wanted it to be.

The other thread I felt was really hanging was what happens next? Malcolm is this golden person with a magic aura who the witches know about and who’s defeated a sorcerer but who is younger than Lyra (? In outlook? But Lyra’s still incredibly childish…) - what happens? Presumably there’s still a police state in Brytain that won’t just collapse because Delamare was killed. And they’re claiming he had inappropriate feelings for Lyra while he was teaching her… (which isn’t entirely untrue) and his College is still being taken over by corporates… so his future looks pretty crap? But it’s ok because the stroppy student who chucked away his hard-won love gift that he sweated over and risked his life for without really a second thought is going to set up with the women who shagged him when he was 16 because she was grieving her husband. Sounds great!

And what was with the palace in the desert? Do people actually have to separate from their demons to get there? Delamare didn’t. neither did Lyra’s brother. I don’t get it. What was the point of the lovely Persian myth that was going to turn out to be about our white protagonists all along? They just forgot about it!

I can understand Lyra leaving Will as part of her childhood but didn’t they part with a “mission” to find and close gaps? What if Will’s all set to be an explorer like his father and is busily closing all the windows in his world? Isn’t that a problem now? Won’t it stop the Dust flowing?

I enjoyed it, but felt unsatisfied when I got to the end. I guess after the ending to the Amber Spyglass, which was amazing, this ending felt like too much was unresolved. It feels like the author is moving us on somehow, and showing us the difference between books for children and books for adults.
i thought it lacked pace in places, and the Magesterium plot line was a bit dull. I did love Mr. Ionedes though, and the griphons

I’ve just finished and my first thought is that it was a let down. The ending was a nothing. The whole book felt … I don’t know. Unsatisfactory ? Like most Pullman books it will need a second and third read to get the most out of it, but I feel really disappointed

I’ve just finished also, and have the same thoughts as others. Not really sure what the point was or how it was an ending at all really. None of the questions were answered.

Not sure what Lyra and Malcolm were supposed to be achieving that seemed to have been foretold in some way - they didn’t actually do anything, it was Bonneville that killed Delamare, all Lyra did was reopen the one window. Also not sure why the Rose world seemed to swing from Armageddon to actually fine within a few moments.

I've just finished. I was really enjoying it, but towards the end the story began to unravel somewhat.

I don't understand how in another world accessed through a doorway in an eastern desert were Henry and Ethel, lamenting over decimalization!

And then the actual ending was so abrupt! What happened to Malcolm. Did he and Lyra get together? Did they go back? Soo many questions!

It took about a million years to get going and then Just ended. I was disappointed!

Made the HDM books (which I loved) pointless- the only window that can be left open is the window for the world of the dead- now it’s totally fine, in fact necessary, even though the angels insisted Lyra and Will could never see each other again which apparently they could have done the whole time.

Still don’t know what was going on with the depressed, German speaking dog daemon who didn’t belong to the lecturer.

Why is Malcolm younger? Why, also, is he remarkable?

The whole Gryffon fight with the random gold man in the cliffs was all a bit unconnected with everything else yet seemed to have a lot of time dedicated to it.

and lastly - I might have been skim reading so missed it- why did the aletheometer glass stop the fire when they looked through it to find the cave in the mountains? I felt like I’d missed something there but didn’t want to skip back on my kindle

This is so true. Another world with a doorway so far from England, live a little couple called Henry and Ethel with perfect English!

I’ve just finished it. I feel so perplexed by it, and I’m left with so many questions.

His Dark Materials was so robust and solid and well thought out. There were things Pullman wanted to say and he did so deftly. It left us with just enough unsaid that it made me want to reread them over and over.

It feels like the Book Of Dust trilogy is a dumping ground for all of Pullman’s ideas or philosophical wonderings without any coherent narrative to pull them into focus. I enjoyed so much of it, but it felt as if I were enjoying hearing about concepts he hadn’t finished figuring out how to use yet.

Worst of all, why oh why would Lyra, upon discovering that apparently the doorways between worlds are in fact good (and don’t cause spectres? And weren’t all closed by the angels at all??) try to reach Will? That would be the first thing, and yet it never even gets acknowledged that this man she loved first and most and longed for so powerfully might suddenly be within reach again.

The novel felt so ungainly and illogical. Lyra was a person who didn’t seem at all related to who she had been. I wish that Pullman had written about a different world in order to exercise his ideas, or a different character, rather than altering everything that was so wonderfully and poignantly resolved and leaving such a mess story in its wake. HDM was sad but it ended conclusively. This feels like a fictional retelling of all of Pullman’s fears and observations about the world, without any thoughts on how to address them.

Everything you’ve said, @Imbrocator.

Exactly.

Glad to have found this! So many good points made in MNetters’ posts!

I enjoyed that Lyra was doing better in herself in this book after such a misery fest in the last one. Also the musing on creativity and imagination and loss of it: could relate to that.

The journeying and anti capitalism themes got dull and the ending pissed me off: so abrupt and so many open threads, like posters say.

I read a newspaper article saying that the editor made him change the ending. I think he originally had Lyra and Malcolm get together, was told that could mean public criticism, and he changed it, but couldn’t properly see through another ending or erase his desire / plot direction - ew.

I like Malcolm but not as Lyra’s teacher / love interest! Or in relation to Alice.

What even happened to Alice - fantastic character two books ago - after London?

What if their daemons catch the covid type illness the people in the Ethel world live in, bring it back and bring a pandemic to their home world?

I liked the brother turning out to have some hopeful qualities, but that character wasn’t properly storytold.

Don’t think storytold is a verb or word 😂

So pleased there is a thread on this.

Just finished and I’m so disappointed and confused! It didn’t end properly.

I also want to know what happened to Alice?
how come Astra was able to be there (and others including Bonnevilles daemon) but there was the whole thing about them not being able to go in.
What was the thing with the daemons being dead?
The reunion with pan was totally rushed - there was no depth there at all. Just kissing. So weird. Gryphons got n poo re detail than that!
the whole undermining of HDM sits really uncomfortably.
all the build up of the relationship with Malcom, yet it was just left. There was the one comment that Malcom would never say the words he wanted to Lyra when she gave away the necklace he made to the Butlers.

gutted!!!

Oh and the women who took over trade from Bay with the butterfly daemon- what was that all about? She seemed to have one of those disconnected daemons like in the other world? Was it infiltration? Was she responsible for his death?

All the stuff about crossing the desert being so difficult, but Iodonis just said I’ll guide you and then bam, they were suddenly at the red building? what was the point to all the build up.

And why was it a huge army?

I'm like most others - I was so frustrated by the lack of resolution of various plot threads and characters who weren't explained. No real explanation of what they are going back to, either the state of the world or the state of the relationships!
I just love Will and wanted him to be in this book when Lyra was so sad through Secret Commonwealth. In lieu of will, a proper ending doe her where you at least find out what she is going to do. The ending change point mentioned above would make sense - loads of build up to a romantic relationship, then there was an abrupt sentence from Malcom's perspective that it would never happen.

I felt Olivier Bonneville was under developed as a character given the whole book ends with him and Lyra.

How many hours have I just spent to get to that damp squib of an ending? So many characters, so many storylines, so many ideas, and very few of them satisfactorily brought together and concluded.

I was going to write more but I'm so cross but I will note how poorly edited and proofread it was. For example, what was Professor Seidel's first name?

Agree @DiamondRBD, Lyra is still young and could do lots of things in life, a resolved ending wasn’t necessary, but there wasn’t even a signpost to a ‘next thing’ for her.

I understand why he left Will out, but doors between worlds being open left, right and centre and Lyra (and Pan) not even wondering about visiting Will’s world was inconsistent with leaving that part of the story in the past / elsewhere.

The editors must have been tearing their hair out!

Oh gosh yes I came on here with questions and now reading all the comments have even more!

What did the cryptic verbal message mean that Alice had to deliver? And did the end bit with Lyra and Pan talking about fixing Malcolm up with Alice mean that that was going to happen?

And yeh that woman who created new currency who took over from Mustafa Bay - what was all that about - guessing that’s the currency the old couple were talking about in the desert

so many questions (I also don’t realllllly follow what the rose oil stuff meant if I’m honest 🫠 but just happy to go along on the griffin/witchy ride…)

I loved, loved His Dark Materials. La Belle Sauvage was a gift, just right in explaining Lyra’s background as a baby. I found The Secret Commonwealth more difficult as a book with so many loose ends but I really thought the final book would tie the ends together and make sense of the journey. I was so disappointed. It ended with a whimper not a proper ending at all. Too many unresolved stories. Olivier Bonneville was such an unlikeable character. What about lovely Alice? Her story had just started to get interesting. I feel really let down. It felt as if Pullman wanted shot of them all.
I thought the lodestones ( what were they called? ) that gave two people the means to communicate with one another, were just a bit feeble. They just allowed texting because Lyra’s world had somehow not invented mobile phones. I am sure characters in Will’s world used mobile phones and the magisterium were aware of their use. It was all so very unsatisfactory.