Struggling with Dorothy Dunnett!

[667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast]

So I have re read Hilary Mantel’s Cromwell trilogy numerous times and I happened to see Dorothy Dunnett recommend if you like Mantel’s historical fiction. I had also finished all of Sharon K. Penmans books.
I have just started Game of Kings and I’m really finding it hard going ! I very rarely fail to finish a book, I read a lot of historical fiction and non fiction books and have read War and Peace three times(!) so I’m not always looking for a light read. I’m just finding the combination of Latin quotes, olde English and references to Greek mythology a bit too much to keep up with, Scottish slang I am fine with have a Scottish husband and spent a lot of time there. Is it worth persevering? I know people rave about her, I couldn’t even find any translations of the old English that prefixes each chapter.

[WelcomeMarch]

Game of Kings isn't my favourite (though I do love Agnes Herries). You get the feeling Dunnett crammed in every possible quotation incase she never got another chance.

But I'd stick with the series.

[JaninaDuszejko]

She's not using 'slang', it's Scots, a language closely related to but distinct from English.

[TeaAndStrumpets]

I read Game of Kings when I was 15, and bought the whole series in due course. I loved the characters, the humour, the high drama.
Years later I tried to persuade DH he would enjoy them, but he stalled at the second or third book. He found the hero intensely annoying.
So, mixed views in our household!

[LovelaceBiggWither]

This might help

https://nowyouhavedunnett.blogspot.com/p/introduction.html

Damn it's not the blog I thought it was and doesn't continue.

There are published guides but I can only find ridiculously priced secondhand copies.

The books are not an easy read (especially compared to Penman) but worth it once you get into the swing of them.

[667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast]

@JaninaDuszejko

She's not using 'slang', it's Scots, a language closely related to but distinct from English.

Hi yes thank you my father is Scottish and so is my husband. I seen it described as “slang” in a review somewhere else but I’m aware of Scots as a separate language such as used by Rabbie Burns.

[667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast]

@LovelaceBiggWither Thank you will definitely have a look at that !

[667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast]

@TeaAndStrumpets the hero reminds me of a more erudite version of Lord Flashheart from Blackadder ! 😁

[Talipesmum]

I was the same! I googled helplessly and also found the “now you have dunnett “ blog - it’s great, really helpful. It was like reading the recap posts on line of duty - “ohhh that’s what was happening!”

I would persevere. I was wholly annoyed with Lymond for quite a while but it gets a lot better as you figure out what’s going on.

Later on take a look in the tapatalk book forums for much more detailed discussion and breakdown of what’s happening. It’s pretty multilayered.

[TeaAndStrumpets]

@667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast

@TeaAndStrumpets the hero reminds me of a more erudite version of Lord Flashheart from Blackadder ! 😁

Love it! Great observation. My teen self thought he was very impressive, of course.

I preferred the female characters, TBH.

[highlandcoo]

I'm glad it's not just me OP.

I've heard so many people enthuse about DD's books and thought it would be great to find a whole new series to get my teeth into but I couldn't be doing with Lymond at all.

Lord Flashheart is spot on .. but without the humour and clever dialogue.

They've gone off to the charity shop I'm afraid. Not convinced.

[mimbleandlittlemy]

Lots of people struggle with GoK and QP so what I would do is ignore them, start at Disorderly Knights and go on from there; that's when the real story begins. You won't know one or two salient facts but sod it, you feel like you are part of a proper story in those last four books whereas the first couple can be quite alienating. Equally, her writing style changed as she got older and more confident, there's less showing off in terms of how she quotes tranches of text (some of which she quotes, not checking if they'd actually been written when Lymond was alive). So the Nicolo series isn't lots of foreign poetry being shoved down your throat and you might find those easier than Lymond, though I find the series just a bit too long really.

Writing style is a very tricky thing. I know lots of people who can't do the Hilary Mantel books and just throw them in a corner (personally that's where I would put The Mirror & The Light, though I loved the first two).

[667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast]

Thank you everyone, I’m still plodding on I’m on page 159 now. I am enjoying the story but I do wonder though at a novel needing a guide to help you through it, you don’t even need this for Tolstoy. I just feel it is trying too hard to impress , to put untranslated French in a book let alone the references to Greek mythology without any notes.
I’m ok with the background history as I’m very interested in Scottish history and have read nearly all of Nigel Tranter’s Scottish historical novels which were very well researched. I do find Lymond very annoying though !
@highlandcoo life is too short to try and read something you’re not into so don’t feel bad, at least someone else will get to read it by giving it to charity shop.
@mimbleandlittlemy I love Hilary Mantel, I know what you mean about The Mirror and the Light but it would have been so hard to top Wolf Hall, can’t wait for series two to come on TV.

[minipie]

I also gave up on Lymond, mainly due to the Flashheart issue. I cba working hard to follow a complicated plot when I don’t even like the main character.

[TeaAndStrumpets]

@minipie

I also gave up on Lymond, mainly due to the Flashheart issue. I cba working hard to follow a complicated plot when I don’t even like the main character.

And his saintly mother....you can just imagine her posting in Relationships LOL.

[TeaAndStrumpets]

Sorry daren't post spoilers but anyone who read to the end of the books will know where to point the finger....

[mimbleandlittlemy]

@TeaAndStrumpets

Sorry daren't post spoilers but anyone who read to the end of the books will know where to point the finger....

Quite

[667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast]

Just an update I’m really enjoying Game of Kings now! Still getting Flashheart vibes though lol. I’ve realised as well that the verses of old English at the start of most chapters are all about chess ( I’m not always quick on the uptake) and they are more or less readable but make very little sense to me as I don’t play. I love Agnes Herries so far.

[MissdeeVine]

@667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast

Just an update I’m really enjoying Game of Kings now! Still getting Flashheart vibes though lol. I’ve realised as well that the verses of old English at the start of most chapters are all about chess ( I’m not always quick on the uptake) and they are more or less readable but make very little sense to me as I don’t play. I love Agnes Herries so far.

That's great - keep going! I skipped just about every quotation, and read them just for plot. One day I'll go back and read them properly.

Someone told me when I started Game of Kings (it took me three tries to get past page 50) to remember that we only see Lymond through everyone else's eyes for most of the book. He's so hard to get a handle on that it can feel very alienating. The Flashheart vibe gets less as we understand him more, I think.

Queens' Play took me a while, but then I couldn't stop and stormed through the others. Pawn in Frankincense broke my heart, and I skimmed the stuff in Russia in The Ringed Castle, but there's a moment after that, 'one single stroke', that still makes my heart beat faster when I think about it. I hardly breathed while reading Checkmate...

[mimbleandlittlemy]

@667TheNeighbourOfTheBeast

Just an update I’m really enjoying Game of Kings now! Still getting Flashheart vibes though lol. I’ve realised as well that the verses of old English at the start of most chapters are all about chess ( I’m not always quick on the uptake) and they are more or less readable but make very little sense to me as I don’t play. I love Agnes Herries so far.

Brilliant - so pleased. Flashheart goes, I promise, and by Checkmate… well…

[WelcomeMarch]

The anvil, MissdeeVine?

Ohhhh yes.

[MissdeeVine]

@WelcomeMarch

The anvil, MissdeeVine?

Ohhhh yes.

Yes!

Sometimes I pull the book off the shelf just to read those few pages.

[Abouttimeforanamechange]

the hero reminds me of a more erudite version of Lord Flashheart from Blackadder !

He actually owes quite a lot to Lord Peter Wimsey. Dorothy Dunnett was a fan of Dorothy L. Sayers. The habit of quoting poetry in foreign languages....

It's also worth remembering that Lymond was very young at the time of Game of Kings - I don't think his actual age is revealed until near the end of the book.

[Revengeofthepangolins]

I too vote Lord Peter Whimsey. I totally recognise the points about quotations and the way Francis is presented, but I still like them. The Nicola series avoids many of the aspects beinf commented on so well worth a go if not convinced by Lymond

[EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel]

The Lord Peter Wimsey references have sent me off on an interesting tangent with Harriet Vane, but I don’t think I can say more on here without spoilers.

Does anyone see what I’m getting at though?

[LovelaceBiggWither]

The books by Elspeth Morrison are fantastic

https://www.amazon.com.au/Dorothy-Dunnett-Companion-001/dp/0375725873/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1LB4EUQZA8INP&amp%3Bdib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.mgmUQedCapskEr8C7F6bG-vJ_V6tUw96vgJskIq3tGKUeHMfK4tbtAwD1TvGh-s325DljTmvmFME1JPXMMmnTrD7zV_VvrwGe-0DChqMzj4mk9NtCpP41pn1K8lfoL-B2V5kEurVsb5QA64AW2lH7PDdCp8a31LmaZkJTraN_E5h9jAfz8MeDg9TdxuamhhuQYsy_mkjy9itRlGlGzs-5EW7zksz-d6_dYZ0e88-xcCRHnxArh-80_u-2enRd-4E6oN9R_77n9sHr5KDhghIb09eU_CvI7lVlksCji1rc-8._CoY7pE1Wn3Kccnh454cWeCk4NpiklqKz1EIACZvj3U&amp%3Bdib_tag=se&amp%3Bkeywords=dorothy%20dunnett%20elspeth&amp%3Bqid=1711251590&amp%3Bsprefix=dorothy%20dunnett%20elspeth%2Caps%2C277&amp%3Bsr=8-3&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Here is a lovingly assembled, essential A-Z companion to Dorothy Dunnett's brilliant Lymond Chronicles and the first five novels in the House of Niccolò series.Elspeth Morrison has re-created the author's exhaustive original research, documenting her myriad sources and literary references. Foreign phrases are translated; poems and quotations presented in full; historical figures and events fleshed out; subtle allusions-and there are many-noted. From the origins of the Arabic drink qahveh to a recipe for quince paste, from the medical uses of ants and alum, to Zacco, Zenobia, and Zoroaster, this easy-to-use A-to-Z reference richly illuminates the intricacies of the complex and far-flung Renaissance world Dorothy Dunnett's creations so colorfully inhabit.